Equity, Not Equality: What Neurodivergent Students Really Need

Hello and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast. I'm your host, Paul Cruz, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey of exploration, advocacy, and celebration of neurodiversity. Together, we'll have meaningful conversations, share inspiring stories, and challenge misconceptions about neurodiversity. This podcast is for everyone, whether you're neurodivergent yourself, an educator, parent, or just someone curious to learn more. Our goal is to amplify voices, foster understanding, and spark change in the way we view and support neurodiversity.

We're so excited to have you with us as we celebrate the beauty of diverse minds and work toward a more inclusive future. So sit back, relax, and get started. Welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast. Today we're giving the opportunity to two university students, Hussein Saab and Zion Chinwo from the Venture for Canada through their Entrepreneurship Program, which is a project based program designed to show post secondary students that paid work experience, network connections, and career clarity just come from a job. They will take over our position as hosts for this episode.

They will be joined by three inspiring guests from the Neurodiversity Students Association at Toronto Metropolitan University This public research university is in the Garden District in Downtown Toronto, Canada. Our guests are Jenna Ignaczak, the Co President Malka Finkelstein from the Events and Marketing Committee and Maddie Sardone, Vice President of Marketing. Together they will discuss what it really means to build a neurodivergent friendly campus, the systemic barriers that still exist, and how Generation Z is actively shifting the narrative on neurodiversity. Let's get into their conversation.

Welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices broadcast, where we embrace every mind and share every voice. I'm Hussein.

And I'm Zion.

And today, we're diving into the lived experiences of neurodivergent students navigating post secondary education.

And that's right. So today's episode is all about inclusion, advocacy, and imagining a future where neurodivergent students are seen, supported, and empowered on campus.

We're excited to welcome our guests from the Neurodiversity Students Association at TMU. Let's kick things off with some introductions. Could each of you tell us your name and a little about what inspired you to join the NDSA?

Sure, my name's

Jenna and I first started university a few years ago and I was having trouble making friends on campus, so I was looking through the school website to find a club that I could join. Saw the NDSA listed there and I decided to join. And when I first joined, it was like very dead and there wasn't a lot of chatting going on, but slowly the club picked up and there was a new president and everything just got a lot more active. And then that's how I kind of joined the committee and then became director of events. Now I'm the co president.

Hi, my name is Malka. I am a upcoming student at TMU. So I start this September. I was actually aware of the club before I became a student. I have a friend who's actually a TMU student who kind of introduced me to his friend group, which just happened to be the people that are in charge of the club now.

So I was offered to join the club as a committee member once I was like officially enrolled at TMU. I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. And so it's very interesting for me because I didn't realize I was ADHD until I was in my twenties. And so with the club, I kind of feel like I want to be able to help people who are kind of in this similar boat to me where they weren't necessarily aware that they were neurodivergent as a child, but now as an adult, everything kind of just like falls into place.

To start us off, we'd love to hear from each of you. What does the term neurodiversity mean to you personally?

To me, neurodiversity is just like a word that describes how everyone's brain is different. Kind of encompasses everyone. And then within neurodiversity, you have both neurotypical and neurodivergent people. So pretty broad term. I think I like it a lot because instead of like pathologizing people and putting them into like this outcasted box, it kind of just says like, we're all neurodiverse and we all work differently.

And it just emphasizes that there isn't one right way to be, and everyone has certain strengths and challenges. Then you can kind of get into the more specific terms like neurodivergent. And that is also a pretty broad term and it just kind of like encompasses everyone that isn't neurotypical.

So for me, I see neurodiversity as kind of like what makes you unique. And kind of forging off what Jenna said is just, it's a way to describe, you know, everyone as a whole. And then, you know, within neurodiversity, there are people who are neurodivergent and then people who are neurotypical. For me, like, because I went so long not knowing I was neurodivergent. Like I always grew up thinking that was weird or like there's something off with me because I had like a weird thing with like certain sensory things, like smells or textures, but like, I didn't consider that I was neurodivergent.

And so when I got diagnosed as an adult, you start to kind of really understand yourself better and just kind of how people around you work differently. And just because you have a sensitivity, you know, let's say to like tags on the back of your clothes, it doesn't necessarily make you, like, weird or different. It's just part of, like, the diversity of being human, being alive is just being different from everyone else. And that's

Let's talk about your campus life. Have you experienced moments where you felt truly understood or supported as a neurodivergent student? And what did that look like?

My first year in nursing, I actually had a really amazing professor. She reached out to me and built a connection when the semester first started. So how it works at TMU specifically is that you have like an accommodation plan written by the accommodations office, and then you send it to each individual professor. And usually, I never hear back from the professors. They just kinda do it on their end, and they don't really, like, talk to me or check-in with me.

But she particularly always emailed me before any tests. She reminded me to register with the test center, and she just, like, frequently checked in and sent me emails to make sure I was getting my needs met. It was super helpful because when you have to register for every test and every assignment, it sometimes is, like, dozens per semester, and it can be pretty difficult to stay on top of it. And another time I had a really good professor was in a disability studies class and she was very accommodating. She made sure that everyone had access to the notes, whether or not you had that specific accommodation, which was really neat because it didn't really make you feel like outcasted.

Sometimes advocating for getting your needs met can make you feel like you don't have dignity or that it's, it's sometimes can be really exhausting and scary, but she made it so that everyone could have the accommodation and you didn't really need to like disclose super personal medical information to get it. And it would, that was really nice.

So I am still a new student at TMU, so I don't really have the most anecdotes to speak of yet. I'm hoping that everything will go smoothly. I'm currently in the process of getting registered with our Accessibilities Office. I could speak on the club that I feel very welcomed by the club. When I was like freshly diagnosed with ADHD, I didn't really have a lot of people to talk to who were also neurodivergent.

And it was a little isolating because I was experiencing a lot of things, especially when I began medication for the first time. I would like have no one to talk to. So being a part of the clout has been like a very welcoming experience thus far. So yeah, I'm hoping to have only good things to say when I actually start classes.

On the flip side, we do know that support isn't always there. What challenges have either of you faced either as a neurodivergent student or as an ally when trying to navigate the school system?

Okay. I actually wrote notes for this one because I had a lot to say, but I didn't want to ramble. So for me, as someone with ADHD, it is really hard sometimes for teachers to understand. I'm not paying attention because I don't care. I'm not paying attention because it is very difficult for me to stay focused at a task at hand, especially if you need to focus on multiple things at once during class.

So like writing notes, but then also listening to what the teacher is saying, and then also making sure you're writing down the stuff that's needed or stuff that you don't need to know. And it's even more difficult when, especially if you're like sensitive to noises like I am, that sounds like someone sniffling from a cold or, like, chewing gum sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me. And so it can be very overstimulating in a classroom environment sometimes. And a lot of times, professors don't necessarily understand this, or if they do, they don't really care because they kind of have this mentality of, well, you're an adult, so you'll just have to deal with it, which can be very difficult sometimes because I don't want to come off childish being like, I can't pay attention and I don't feel like trying any harder. But at the same time, the professors should also also should understand that, you know, our people with neurodivergency, their brains are wired differently.

So we respond different to different stimuli. Yeah.

No, I agree. Both. I'm sorry. I'm Maddie.

Personally, I have had a hard time navigating the system when it comes to getting my needs met because I am labeled as difficult due to the fact that my study is more complex than the school wants to be. So therefore, I cannot get the help needed. And they offered and therefore, I've been told by my adviser and the AAS to just give up and quit school, to no one be there because I am too much work to support is the best way to put it.

So what do you think your university is getting right and where do they still fall short?

Our university is they're definitely on the right track in some ways. Like we do have a specific accommodations office set up where we have people there who they're kind of trying to make the bridge between the students and the professors, and they do mostly try to get us accommodations, but sometimes it's still, there's a large lack of education with the accommodations office. We've had a lot of students having difficulties particularly with them because like, for example, one student had a shutdown and the accommodations office thought that they were deaf because they hadn't, they had no idea how to deal with that. And they are supposed to be the one resource that is there specifically for disabled students, but it oftentimes does still fall short. And like Maddie said, a lot of times, instead of advocating for us, they say it's too complex or that it would be easier just to drop out.

So even though I'm a new TMU student, I went to a college previously where I was involved in kind of the accommodations related services. And I feel like a lot of schools have really, really good groundwork laid out in terms

of

offering accommodations. The problem is actually securing those proper accommodations and then individualizing them for every student. And then an even bigger issue is having the professors then follow through with that accommodations plan. I feel like also a lot of the people that work for the accommodations aren't as informed as I would like them to be on different disabilities and what different physical, mental disabilities look like and how it can represent itself. Like Jenna said, a student had to shut down, which can result in someone not responding to people talking to them because they're just so stuck in that moment right there.

And the fact that they thought the student was deaf because they couldn't recognize the fact that they were having a moment is very disappointing. I feel like also a lot of times the accommodations are not that great. For example, TMU note takers are supposed to be able to help students take notes. However, I've heard and have been told they're actually really bad and often underperform or just deliver nothing at the end of the day. And I also hear a lot about professors who just don't care enough, or they have a lot of personal biases against students with accommodations.

So they just won't follow through on the accommodation plan that a student has presented them from the accessibility office. And so that's why I said like, they have really good groundwork. Like they have the proper stuff started to get stuff rolling. The problem is the follow through and the making sure that people are actually informed to work for the offices is just not there. And it can be really frustrating because from a surface level, it looks like Team U does great in their accessibility, but then you see all of the cracks kind of underneath the surface and it can be kind of disheartening if you have more complex needs.

Yeah, certainly. So I love what you said, Malka, about having the foundational groundwork in post secondary education. So if we could a better future and you could redesign one part of post secondary life to be more inclusive, what would you change first?

Can I answer this question?

Yeah, of course. Go ahead.

Okay. Well, I can't switch to any four active to type in this question because they were both tied together. From personally, for me, it's so the last question they asked, I agree with Malka a lot, and I agree to agree with Jenna a lot. And they said then the thing that I would add is they also aren't like, I feel like the school is not informed of those with disabilities. They should be.

And I also like to to students at all. And that that I think they should definitely work on going forward is trying to just maybe getting so they're having educators who actually understand disabilities and actually knows the leaders involved and have more people in the school to be more involved, to be more understanding disabilities. That's a course to take if that's, like, an extra, like, good class to take because, like, I don't know. High school teachers have to go to those meetings. And for that, there's other, like, workshops to learn disabilities.

So I don't see why it's so different universities to do the same when when coming to high schools can. That's the biggest issue I see. For myself, prior medications my disabilities so different than others. I see people who have so much disabilities like me who are brain complex, they just don't know how to help us. There are not enough resources out there where they can understand it.

I've had times already get my mom's email for me, can my brain can't remember who I am. I can't remember who what happens to me or who I am around me. So therefore, my mom has to email my professors and at first act them mad, they're lazy, they wouldn't that I can't email back them properly. They had mom to for me. So it's definitely is a rough rough it really rough when it comes to me.

I definitely think that's a huge problem that needs to be worked on. And so that's the best part is maybe a week workshops. Going to workshops, trying to find out if she needs them. That's my take on it.

I think education, like Maddie said, is super important. I think also a way that the school could do this is by having maybe like other students paired up with other disabled students so that they can kind of advocate on each other's behalf. Because a lot of times also when you're joining these meetings with your facilitator, it can be really exhausting trying to stand up for yourself and also really scary. You don't sometimes you don't even know what's available because everything is kind of like hidden behind all the, these different pathways that you can't really easily access. So having someone there that could be advocating for you on your behalf, whether it is like another student or someone else, I think that would be really helpful.

And that would probably really help make postsecondary life better for a lot of people.

Looking at the bigger picture now, what does a truly neurodivergent friendly campus look like to you?

So this question I was like thinking on answering because I was having a hard time coming up with an answer because I'm not really sure how to phrase this, like in terms of my needs when it comes to accommodations, I would say I'm like on the lower end of needs. A lot of the stuff that I look for in accommodations is probably the simplest ones they give. And so I wasn't super sure with what a truly inclusive campus would look like, but I think a really good start would be talking to the voices that you need to talk to. So talking to it, like talking to neurodivergent students and just straight up asking them, what would you want to see in our campus? What are some things that you think would be more neurodivergent friendly?

Because the best way to kind of figure that out is talk to the people that need it the most.

Yeah. For me, it would definitely be, I think, the best way to make it more safe place for neurodivergent students to go to school or even be part of school, we would definitely be adding courses online or having classrooms have, like, less having the light the lights being more dim is definitely helpful. Lighting in a lot of people is very sensory issues. Having dim lighting and that does not have my sounds, that'd be great. I also definitely do think that, as well, like Melica said, I think you have to ask the students what they need and getting better resources.

Main notetakers to actually not take notes. Get recordings. Record your classes while doing them. Like you don't have to record the like a video recording of it. You get recording of like them talking.

Being able to even get like sorry transcripts. Those would be many like those things would be a life changer for a lot of students and they're actually not doing it. And I think it's because once again, it's the fact that it is much easier to rid of us than it is to keep us. It lets you just say, you know what? You're disabled.

Let's just get rid of you. And that's what they wanna do. They wanna check the door. And I'm not saying because I don't wanna be I'm being biased and being mean, but because I've seen it. My whole life, I've seen some students and to be told, they're not good enough.

Just go to the door. Just don't involve school. We taught it. And it helped me. Like I've had doctors, teachers, professors my whole life telling me I don't I shouldn't go to school.

I'm not gonna go to school. Even when I went to university, was told to drop out and I was told by a doctor that I should consider well not a doctor or medical professional that I consider maid as an option due to disability. So there's been many different obstacles

when comes to learning. I agree with getting hearing more people and what everyone needs because everyone's access needs are can be so different to me. I think it would be more openness on what resources are available for us and how we can access them. More like clear instructions on that. And also more online classes or like Maddie said, like even just the transcripts, like someone recording the lecture and then sharing it because sometimes it's not always possible to get in class, like, whether you're not feeling good.

A lot of people have different disabilities that they can't actually show up in person, but it's not very difficult to just record the classes. I think it's something that could be really easily done, but unfortunately, it's not done.

We know that peers and professors can play a big role in shaping your experience. How can fellow students be better allies to their neurodivergent peers?

That's really funny because I wrote like two lines of notes. I wrote that I'm not really sure how to answer this because, and I feel like I'm very lucky. I haven't really dealt with issues of people being ableist to me. And I think it's because for a really long time, I was masking basically my entire childhood, I want to say. A lot of the times, the only people that I really see, like making blatant kind of, I'm not sure the word I want to use is blatant, like talking down to people with disabilities is like boomers who go like, oh, everyone these days is autistic.

I feel like a mistake that people often make is thinking like every autistic or every ADHD person is exactly the same, when in reality it's very much a spectrum of different needs and stuff like that.

It's our best question again?

When it comes to students being better allies to neurodivergent peers, what would you like to see and how do you think that could happen?

I'd say, advocate. Like, I think best thing to do is you're in a classroom. We're gonna see people talking and they're gonna and if you see something that's unfair, think about it. Like, it's not hard to say, hey. I don't think that's fair or, hey.

I don't think that's okay. Like, as a social work student, we're told that. We're told to speak out. We're told to call it out. And I think it's really disheartening because I've seen it in my program where people don't.

I've been told many ninth of peers, what's wrong with you? Why can't you just get it together? But I've seen who just can't because disability age won't let them. And it sucks because every person who is all disabled, I've had to step up while having a seizure, having to help other students out because no one else will. And the professors don't really want to, or the schools don't want to help me out.

So I have to then take a bonds person who is support some for students who actually is way higher up than AES. If you owe them for massive big things and they're not helping you sometimes they don't really know how to help you out because school is so limited and instructors that leaves a lot of students not being able to help their fall students out, which I think is the problem with institution itself.

Definitely like surrounding yourself with neurodivergent people, hearing what they have to say about it. I think most people don't really realize some of the things that they're saying are harmful. What Malka said about how a lot of people say like, oh, everyone's a little bit autistic or people saying like, oh yeah, I have trouble focusing sometimes. I have ADHD. But kind of using it in more of like a general sense instead of like realizing how significantly these conditions can actually affect people.

And then as Maddie said, speaking up about it when you hear someone saying things that aren't true or just making sure you're not perpetuating the harmful stereotypes that are out there is really important.

Thank you both. And Malka, I think you made a really good point that you stated you saw a lot of ableism from older generation. So what role should professors or administrators play in creating inclusive spaces without overburdening themselves or the system?

I've had some really good experiences with professors like before they email me, before tests, making sure I sign up and everything, that's super helpful. A lot of times I think it is difficult because professors do have a lot on their plates. But they do also have teaching assistants. And I think the best way was the disability studies professor who she had other students, instead of having to write the weekly discussion posts, she offered an alternative of uploading the notes for everyone. And that's a really good way to, like, offload some of the work from themselves and just have it like, the students really don't mind, especially when they're given, like, an alternative assignment like that so that they don't have extra work.

It's just something different and still shows that they're learning the content. And then having the students supporting other students is really effective and a good way to do it.

Yeah. For me, a professor's actually more helpful than my my facilitators have been and the school's been. Giving, like, different alternate assignments, getting longer on exams. So that's been very helpful for me. My professor decided Hollywood helps me out more and, like, I talk to them about my study first.

And that's just that's it. I think that's the best thing anything you can do and walk into school is to first, like, for being in school and with that or trying to have my teacher is talk to them. And I it's sad to say, but you have like, I don't get the privilege of saying I'm I'm with AES, and that's it. I have to tell them everything about my body. He'll tie into every little detail because I want because or else I'll be portrayed as lazy.

He just says all that stuff. Then rumors that you would still see somebody who's disabled. And that's or not. So I have more of the have talked to the press all the time. I'll tell them I sweat it completely.

And it does suck, but it does get me this part I need from them. And then this part I get from my affair.

I think Jenna and Maddie covered it pretty well. Was, like, giving it a really good thought when you asked the question, but I personally can't really come up with anything outside of just if you wanna, like, lessen the burden on the teachers or on, I guess, the institution itself is find ways that students can support other students. What Jenna mentioned with students sharing their notes within each other, it's really useful. When I was in college, we would always help each other with assignments. So I guess try to encourage kind of student on student assistance and just kind of looking out for every

Quickly to add on to well, like I said, you can't do that at TMU without breaking policy 60. That's the whole issue with the student student help. It is irrelevant because policy 60 didn't let you.

To be fair, I'm not a student yet. I didn't notice. Okay. That's kinda kinda not good. Team you.

Way to go.

Maddie, do you wanna elaborate on what policy 60 is?

Yeah. So policy 60 basically says that you cannot it's very contradictory on itself. So it says you can't turn out to the students. You can't huddle out projects. You can't clarification with clarification.

You can't talk about on projects at all times without clarification at all. And it is I think I was reading it. I got read it throughout the years. So I'm part of AIA. There's academic integrity ambassadors, and I'm part of it for years now.

And it is the one of the most confusing policies out there, I think. It makes no sense half time because why can't we ask students for help? Go peers and you know talk to peers and ask them what's this about, what's this what's about, without having us fear that we're gonna get in trouble, suspended, failed, paying a fine. Like it's just about issues that it is terrifying. And I limit students to even talk to one another because we are always in terror that we're gonna end up in suspension because there's not much information out there about how what we can do, what we can't do without being being confused.

That's one issue I had with AAS and well, not really. It's with AIA and AIA and the whole integrity office is the fact that we're not telling what's a real issue. We're not figuring out how to make it more understandable and simpler.

Let's talk about accommodations and disclosure. How do you guys approach conversations about your neurodivergence in school or even professional settings? Is it empowering or stressful or even both?

Definitely had a mix of both of those empowering and stressful. I find it depends on the person you're talking to. For example, I had a really good employer in the past where when I disclosed it, like they were actually happy to hear that I was going to be working with other neurodivergent people. It was a really good thing to have the lived experience. And then I've also been very afraid or scared to share that I need accommodations when I've heard this particular person I have to talk to saying harmful things about disability.

And when that's the case, it is definitely scary and stressful, but it is something usually that you have to do. And I find talking about it with like friends and family beforehand, having kind of like a script and knowing what you're going to say is really helpful, but definitely it can be a mix of both.

So for me personally, I don't have an issue asking for accommodations or disclosing that I receive accommodations. I totally understand why it's stressful because I've been in that spot before where I'm like, am I gonna lose my job because I ask for accommodations? But then you have to remember, thankfully we live in Canada where we have laws that don't allow employers to discriminate against you for having a disability. And if they do, it's a crime. I find that it's better to just, you know, even when it's really stressful or scary to ask an employer, to ask a, you know, educational institution for accommodations.

You just have to be upfront what your needs are, because if they don't know, they won't be able to help you or offer you anything. And additionally, the lack of accommodations can lead to worse academic or professional outcomes. Again, it is illegal in Canada to discriminate or deny someone from accommodations. So you have every right personally and legally to request for it. So, yeah.

Like I just said, it is illegal in the discrimination of race, discriminatory. Our promise is they do it. Like it's done at university. We've seen it. I I'm proud of it.

Honestly, I haven't had a class this last year in person and I was not able at all to have notes, lectures, nothing. I'd on my own my own self, I've had myself the entire class, paid for it, but I had no to teach me it. And I have to fight for everything. I've had to constantly sit down and talk to our professors every single class. Hey.

This is my disability. And ask them fully what my disability is. I don't have a chance to, like, oh, hi. I'm part AES, and that's it. I full on tell them everything that goes on with disability and actually what it is.

And that sucks by itself. And I said before, like, that a job placement, that's better. Like, I've had better job placements than I had with the school. Jobs like, I've went into not jobs. Like, I went to my placements, and they were very welcoming.

And they loved how I had real life experiences to lead and and all that stuff. And that way, it helped me become a better I bet helped me become a better employee for them in a way. So because I knew how it would like living with somebody, and that does not go away. That is definitely complicated. It gets worse over time.

And it's just difficult at the school.

I can imagine. Yeah. And even when it comes to exams, essays, or even participation methods, in what ways do you think current assessment methods such as those disadvantage neurodivergent students? And what alternatives would you like to see more of or would you like to see in general?

For me personally, because I have memory issues, like before I do tend to have times where I had seizures and I don't remember anything at all happens. Now I have ADHD which I think makes me well, technically, ADD, what's called ADD, now I have ADHD. I don't remember things. My memory is gone. Basically, I don't have my memory is not there.

It's definitely more it's more of a issue now than before. So I definitely have an issue taking tests. My memory. Even the little memories you give us, they're really memories at all. It's just little abbreviations.

Oh, request a proposal and make that short answer. Like, can't do that. It's really hard. And instead, I prefer, like, a take home exam where you can do it, with your notes or let's say a essay. I'd rather do something where I can actually show my learning through paper or something that has no memory to rely on because memory is not an issue that I know a lot of people struggle with especially people with ADHD.

It is very hard to have a test and to not be able to remember it because your brain can't process it properly. No one else does.

When I do tests, I tend to fidget a lot and it can be particularly not good for online ones that are proctored because the camera is like so small and you have to be in the frame the entire time. And when I do it in person, I do have an accommodation where I get like a five minute break per hour or whatever. So I can like walk around. But when it's online, it is it always flags it. And then it sends messages to the professors and then the professors, they don't really know what to do because it's saying that like I was cheating, but I wasn't.

And it's just like a poor system. And I wish that that system was better specifically for online. And in person, I have an accommodation. You can wear headphones, but the headphones they have are really uncomfortable and you can't bring your own. So there's like, they have these accommodations in place, but they're not always very good, especially online ones.

I was gonna say, so I am a chronic exam failure. And it's not because I don't know the information. It's I have the same issue as Maddie where I have ADHD and I have really bad memory recall, especially when I'm under stress. I just remember it in like high school, like pre diagnosis, I would like study like my butt off before an exam, like every night, two weeks before the exam, I'd be studying the over and over and over. And I'm going into the test, like repeating the answers in my head.

I open the exam paper and my mind just goes blank. Like there's just nothing there. And in my brain, I know I studied this. I should know the information. And so now suddenly the information is not coming to me anymore.

And I like the idea of a take home exam or just an alternative way to show that you have learned the information without having to sit through a one hour, two hour test or exam. I find that a lot of assessment methods are really difficult for neurodivergent students. Like inherently they're very like a neurotypical thing, especially if it's like an open ended question or there's trick questions. My brain doesn't process information the same way that typical person would. And so I can get very confused by trick questions or open ended questions.

And I personally, you know, I do best when the question is just straight up, like, here's the information we're looking for. What is it? I also think like putting a time limit on exams or tests can be really stressful. I mentioned that like, especially under stress, when you know you only have two hours to take this test, you start overthinking about all the questions you need to answer and it can be really overwhelming or you could completely shut down and just fail, which is what I did a lot in high school. So I think the best way to find an alternative is work with each student individually and find the, like an alternative method of how they can prove that they learned the information.

And, you know, some students need frequent breaks, some students need more instruction, some need just, you know, a gentle push to answer another question, just things that aren't just plunking a student down and saying good luck and leaving them alone for two hours.

The role where you have to constantly have your eyes on your paper and you can't have like wandering eyes or like whatever the term is, is also super difficult, especially for neurodivergent people. Like when I'm thinking like naturally my eyes like tend to look around at a bunch of different things, but that is like not allowed. They think you're cheating if your eyes are like moving around and looking at different things. So that's really stressful as well.

So have you guys ever felt like you needed to mask or suppress parts of yourself to succeed academically?

For entirety. When I was in elementary and high school, I had an IEP and it was very obvious that I had some form of learning disability, but they my parents, for whatever reason, didn't want to get me tested. So on that IEP, which I used for all of elementary and high school, it just said undiagnosed learning disability. And I grew up in a religious environment. So I was in private school where I was learning half the education was like regular school studies and the other half was religious studies.

And especially when you're in, you know, a small enclosed environment, most, if not all the students are neurotypical. And unfortunately, they don't know what to do with students who aren't. And so I was one of those students where they didn't really know what to do with me. So they just kind of tried their best. It let me skate by somehow.

And so I learned really quickly growing up that if I just pretend to understand or just say whatever the teachers want to hear in my answers, that's good enough because then I won't get yelled at or I won't get like told off for not passing. And it was difficult because I really struggled in that environment. I was very much like the worst student. I always got told, oh, you aren't trying hard enough or you're not living up to your potential. And it's like, I'm trying in the environment that you've placed me in, but obviously it's not working.

I find that traditional teaching methods don't really work on people who are neurodivergent because by nature, it is a very neurotypical environment. So it forces a lot of neurodivergent students to either like completely flunk or they really have to mask and conform to the environment, which is a huge detriment to themselves. And I just really wish that there was more teachers that understood that it's not a one size fits all teaching kind of style.

For me, I had the opposite experience. I was diagnosed as a kid at age six. Age six, I was diagnosed with a I have like many disabilities. I don't know how many I was diagnosed with. Was unlearned abilities, medications.

So it means it's up to like six disabilities I have. My aunt, the witch, psychologist, helped me figure out which one I actually had because they don't tell you. Unless it's, like, one is only they'll tell you. But we had many of the ages that had disabilities. And so my aunt went through it and found out which one I had and what was.

But as well as I also have ADHD and I have a trilogy mutation. We just call them my seizures and all the all my other issues. So basically for me, it was known as in school. I was known as demonic. I was called demonic.

I was told never I'm gonna pass school. I thought I had to literally make sure that I was prestigious perfect. And I always I used to study from and this is at the age of seven years old. I used to study from the from the time I got home at 5PM. Sometimes till like six in the morning.

I didn't sleep. In high school I was lucky if I got five minutes of sleep because I constantly thought education a privilege and not a right. Like, I I didn't think I had a right to education. I thought it was I'm I'm lucky I'm in school. I'm lucky I'm in high school.

I'm lucky I get the I'm in grade school. I had to fight for everything since the age since I was six. If I didn't okay myself and say hey I want to learn they would have gave me answer on tests which happened frequently. I wasn't even answers I was told an idiot I was called his names and I had teachers literally tell me I'm never in my life. I had a doctor told me that no matter what I did I'm never going to get to university.

And here I am still fighting her rights, still trying to get through school. And I have to sit here and I've seen my own sisters and stuff like that. I've seen what I might with the school system. I've seen it with high school, the grade schools, and it's still happening. That's just so hidden that unless you're disabled yourself or unless you really wanna learn, you do no one else is gonna notice it.

No one else is gonna help you back, help you back because they don't see it.

Jenna, just zooming out and from the perspective of someone who's an executive team in this club, how is Gen Z shifting the narrative around neurodiversity and changing what normal even means?

So really cool question. I think about that a lot as well. I think it's like the openness of our generation and I think maybe we're a lot less judgmental than previous generations and kind of working to get rid of the mold of like what a person should be and that people should be doing this. And instead changing it to be like, can be their authentic selves and that's okay. And even things like this podcast and there's a lot more organizations popping up, but people are sharing their lived experiences, which also encourages others to share their lived experiences and kinda creates a community of people who now can all share with one another.

So I wanted to ask you guys, what gives you hope for the future of education and accessibility?

Social workers, the social students, I can always say we're a lot of social workers are looking at how to improve systems. Our job is to take places to glue systems and policies and tear apart. We're also to colonize a lot of it. And that's our job and that's what we do. And that's what I've been doing.

I am doing it my whole life. So for me, it's not, it's not like a big thing. I'm like, oh yeah, this is something that's huge. It's me. It's like, okay, here's the stuff.

Look at it. Look at all the policies that I did this year with the policy for permanent flexibility for disabilities, the policies for a for policy 60, both policies looked at both of them and I literally took them and I read them all and I cut them apart like science fiction and I had submitted a paper right before I professor talking about how they should be done in school. And it is not an easy job. It's not going be done in a day or a week, but the more we are able to talk about issues and more we're able to understand what's happening and the magnitude of what is going on, the issue isn't solely going to become the problem. If there is real change happening and people really want it to happen.

That's what it takes. It takes the fact that you have to really want to change it. You have to really want to make the change. Cause it's always saying, Hey, want to change. But yet when the process actually makes a change is a difficult part, part.

Like I'm a guy, myself, I'm a research student and I've done that where I've had to look at it, look at the policy 60, try and inform somebody about it, try to see the collations between cheating, disabilities, mental health, and policy 60 to see where are we going wrong. And the problem is no one wants to look at that of those issues. So how can we really change it if no one look at the issues? And that's the problem that we're having. And that's gonna be a solution as well.

So if we do those issues, we do we actually do take a lens and stop trying to see all the goodness of a thing and actually look behind it all, all the cracks. Look at the formation. Look at how it's broken down. We can then fix it from there. But it's only if we're willing to.

Definitely comes from a willingness to be able to change the systematic nature of the higher education system. And finally, if every university admin in the country had to hear this episode, What is one brief message that you'd want them to take away from your story?

Oh, I wanna say if they could take away anything from this podcast episode, I would say it's not just about equality. It's about equity. So what I mean by that is that they need to understand that not every neurodivergent student fits into this kind of general box of neurodiversity. Very often, accommodations and other things that are set up to assist students are very generic, very kind of lackluster, and they're very like one size fits all. But the problem is that not every student needs that kind of one size fits all type of mentality.

They need personalized accommodation plans, and on top of that, they just kind of need things tailored to what they need rather than what the administrative thinks they need, which is why I say it's about equity not equality, because we can all be equal, but if someone's struggling under that equality, then that's not really fair at the end of the day.

I think it's important to realize that we don't really know what we don't know. It's important to ask questions to students instead of just assuming that they are being lazy. A lot of students are trying their best, especially in higher education. People are paying to be there. And they've applied to these programs and they do want to succeed, but oftentimes they're not given the resources they need.

So instead of assuming things about the student, I think we should have a meeting with them and discuss what specifically they need to help them succeed.

Yeah, of course, heavy emphasis on every student is trying their best. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And Maddie, what would you like to add?

I'd say it's KQA. This is for sure. This is your type. Like, at the types. Look at the way your your student's body and absolutely change the mindset you have.

I'm looking at your symptoms in total. Like, what are you doing to make him more ableist? What are you doing that's not helping it? And what are your beliefs? And how can you change that?

Because, again, I don't really hate this complexity. We're not we're looking at more at more sports and more help. I love the health and health sports. We're going to have more students feeling absolutely lost. And I'm lucky that I was always fighting because I was two years old.

I'm lucky that my mom has always told me from the very beginning that I am disabled, that I'm different, and I always just treat differently. So I'm lucky I had that experience when I was a little kid and bullied and surrendered against and I was harmed, disabled, or else who knows where it would end up. But that's not the problem. How far do we have to go for one dangerous for us to realize the problem? Please look at this issue.

Look at the abilities, everything around you and don't be ignorant to it because there are students who probably have done have done a whole thing to themselves just to try to be good enough. Don't let don't let it go that far.

Thank you so much for sharing your stories, your insights, your vision. Your voices are very powerful and very necessary, and we really, really appreciate that you took the time to join us on this podcast. It was a very insightful experience, and I'm sure many will take a lot from it. Thank you once again, Malka, Jenna, and Maddie.

Thank you for tuning in to this powerful episode of the Neurodiversity Voices podcast. We're so grateful to Jenna, Malka and Maddie for their courage, insight and honesty. We also want to give a warm appreciation to our two amazing hosts, Hussein and Zion. This conversation was more than just informative. It was a call to action.

If there's one thing we hope you take away, it's that equity matters. Listening to lived experience matters. And together, we can create educational spaces that honor and uplift every kind of mind. If you enjoyed this conversation, please rate, share, follow, subscribe, and leave a review on your favorite podcast app. If you have any questions, ideas, or stories you'd like to share, please feel free to contact us or fill out our listener survey form on our website at www.neurodiversityvoices.com.

We'd love to hear from you. Until next time, take care, stay curious, and keep celebrating the beauty of diverse minds. Thanks for listening to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast.