The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast

Hello, and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast. I'm your host, Paul Cruz, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey of exploration, advocacy, and celebration of neurodiversity.

I'm Tayaba Khan, your volunteer co host. Together, we'll have meaningful conversations, share inspiring stories, and challenge misconceptions about neurodiversity.

This podcast is for everyone, whether you're neurodivergent yourself, an educator, parent, or just someone curious to learn more. Our goal is to amplify voices through understanding and spark change in the way we view and support neurodiversity.

We're so excited to have you with us as we celebrate the beauty of diverse minds and work towards a more inclusive future.

Becky Bishop is a passionate advocate for inclusive education and neurodiversity whose journey has been shaped by her personal experiences and professional insights. Transitioning from a background in human geography to championing the needs of neurodivergent learners, Becky's work is deeply informed by her late ADHD diagnosis, which transformed her perspective on both her personal and professional life. Through her involvement with LDS, she has focused on addressing systemic barriers, challenging misconceptions about neurodiversity, and creating equitable opportunities for learners, particularly those from marginalized communities. Becky's commitment to fostering psychologically safe spaces and tailoring learning programs to individual needs has led to impactful success stories. While her advocacy continues to inspire initiatives that support neurodivergent individuals in education and beyond.

Can you share a pivotal moment in your journey that inspired you to transition from studying human geography to advocating for inclusive education?

Yeah, absolutely. It was actually a series of pivotal moments that got me from A to B. The first pivotal moment for me was in my very first geography class at university, where I became just fascinated by how systems, spaces, and environments really shape human experiences and how everything and everyone is connected in some way. And then throughout other courses, I became especially drawn to human dimensions of wildlife, which is the application of social psychology to natural resource management. And that really ignited my desire to advocate for more balanced societies, more so in environmental conservation at that point.

And I did eventually complete my bachelor's degree and then pursued a master's degree in the same field. And then the second pivotal moment happened when I became a teaching assistant for my graduate supervisor, and I really latched on to that experience of sharing information and helping other people to really discover the magic of geography. And then throughout my master's degree, I also worked on a small scales fisheries project, and there I created interdisciplinary research practices, which further opened my eyes to the importance of just understanding many different branches of knowledge and how connection is so important to literally everything. And I was also invited to be a sessional instructor for an outdoor recreation management course, and that's what really sparked my specific interest in adult education, and that's when I ended up getting an education degree in adult learning. And then the third shift came when I moved to Vancouver almost eight years ago now.

I started working at a different learning center, more focused on children aged three to grade 12. But I could really see first hand just how many kids were falling through the cracks, especially kids who had undiagnosed or unacknowledged learning differences. And because I tend to look at things in terms of connections, I could see the impact that it was having on our adult population as well. And I also became very painfully aware of how expensive learning support can be, and just realized that being able to access education is really an equity issue. So after leaving that learning center, I found LDS, which was really the pinnacle of everything I'd really been working for.

So every step from my geography degree to human dimensions of wildlife, teaching, supporting learners, I just I really realized how deeply access and equity are woven into meaningful education. The experience I've had here, especially at LDS, has really solidified my commitment to inclusive education.

Wow, that's amazing. So how has receiving a late diagnosis of ADHD changed your perspective on your personal, your professional life, and how has it shaped the way you support neurodivergent learners?

Goodness. It was both very validating but also very disorienting. All of a sudden, so many pieces of my life made sense. The way that I think, the way that my energy fluctuates, challenging emotions, that feeling that I was just too big for my body, but also why I related so much to the neurodivergent learners that I worked with. Getting a diagnosis really helped me to reframe past challenges with a little more self compassion, but it also came with a big flood of grief for what could have been.

I remember very distinctly in maybe like a week after I got that confirmation, I was on my way, like driving somewhere and I had to pull over on Broadway just to like sob hysterically and then just get back to what I was doing. And I still have some of those moments, like really like moments of sadness and anger, but also like I recognize that I've been gifted with some really magical moments of validation and clarity, and it's really helped me to better understand who I am. And then in terms of my professional life at ADHD, it's really deepened my empathy for neurodivergent learners. Like I'm not just supporting them from a theoretical standpoint, like I actually understand what they're going through on a personal level.

How has finding a sense of community at LDS shaped your work and helped you better understand yourself, particularly after your ADHD diagnosis?

Yeah. You bet. So LDS Learn Develop Succeed is a BC based nonprofit charity. Our mission is to support unique learners in achieving their learning goals. We have programs for learners age three to adult, and we work really hard to make sure that our programs are as accessible and low barrier as possible.

We have such an incredible community of learners, supporters, allies, and being a part of that was really integral in me identifying myself as neurodivergent and then eventually being diagnosed. And working with a team, like my colleagues, who not only understand neurodivergence but celebrate it too is really life changing. And that's unfortunately very rare, but we're working toward making it a more common experience. And then I guess the other really important aspect of LDS as a whole is our neuro affirming environment. So we're always trying to learn from each other and from our community about how best to show up and build systems where neurodivergent people can thrive instead of believing that there's something wrong with them or they need to be fixed.

So the community is a very important aspect. I mean, I think anyone who is diagnosed needs some kind of an affirmation that I'm not alone. I'm not the only one suffering from this. And it's maybe not the right word, the use of the word suffering, but maybe it's how the society makes you perceive your diagnosis, that this is a suffering and, you know, it's not. So I think the community aspect is definitely an important aspect.

I wonder if you could share an example of how LDS has helped a learner, perhaps a good ex you know, if there's there's somebody who stands out in your mind and in this way, they help the learner overcome some sort of a systemic barrier, could be an economic, physical, or

access to education. Is there a story you can share with us? I mean, in general, like our team works tirelessly to increase access to education. We're all so incredibly passionate. If you ask anyone who works here, what is the worst part of your job?

Most of them are going to say it's that they can't do enough. And the most significant support that we offer outside of our programs, of course, is financial support. So all of our programs are on a sliding scale based on income, and we make sure that everyone can access programs without financial burden. We're not government funded, so we work really hard to get grants and funding and generous donations, big or small, to ensure that we can continue that. But personally for me, my favorite examples are those where I can educate people and then advocate for a learner to receive the accommodations and support that they need.

So just a couple of months ago, I had a learner who was writing an entrance exam for a university, and that university would not accept the psychoeducational assessment that they had when they were quite young and they needed an updated assessment. So I ended up advocating and going into a very extensive explanation of why that policy is such a significant barrier, because the process of getting a psychoeducational assessment comes with several barriers. It is next to impossible to do unless you have connections or a lot of financial security to be able to do that. So, anyway, the the learner was successful in getting those accommodations that they needed. So and I'm really hoping that that university will continue that practice as well.

Becky, can you share a success story where tailoring a learning program to a learner's unique profile led to a breakthrough in their educational journey?

Yeah. Definitely. Mean, it's really rare that a tailored program doesn't lead to some kind of breakthrough because a lot of learning and the education system is very narrowly focused. I'd have to say my personal favorite success comes from the very first adult learner in our program. She's a woman, she's in her late thirties, and she has cerebral palsy.

So before coming to LDS, she could not read, had very limited writing abilities. And now about two and a half, three years later, she's reading independently. She's writing sentences, demonstrating so many new skills that she didn't do before. She's an absolute superstar and I'm always, yeah, I'm always sharing her story. She's amazing.

So LDS is doing a lot of work as you just mentioned and this is amazing. Just this example of a cerebral palsy patient being able to communicate now. And I'm sure she's having a blast. Must be so happy. Can you share an example of how LDS collaborates with other organizations or institutions to promote that inclusive education?

You gave a really good example of the student, the university student, but how, how does it work with other organizations and help create a psychologically safe space for neurodivergent learners?

We collaborate with other organizations in many different ways. We're always open to new partnerships. We typically work with values aligned organizations, and that might look like referring learners back and forth. It might look like joint advocacy efforts or other things like workshop delivery or co leading events or programs and things like that. And we include a lot of our community partners on our website.

What are the future goals or initiatives for LDS in supporting neurodivergent individuals? And how can society better support them in professional and educational settings?

Yeah, we're always thinking about ways that we can grow and improve. Me personally, I'm currently working on expanding our youth and adult programs in a few different ways. So for our adult programs specifically, we, have just received funding for a new program called Skills for Trades,

and we'll

be launching a press release hopefully in a couple of weeks. But it's a program to support neurodivergent individuals who are trying to get into the trades, which is really important to our province and to our country right now. You can find updates on our newsletter and social media, etcetera. But really, I mean, are so many ways that society can better support neurodivergent individuals. The list is endless.

I think the key is including neurodivergent voices in decision making and leadership. So people are the experts of themselves, so why wouldn't you include them? It doesn't make sense for a neurotypical individual to speak and make decisions on behalf of neurodivergent individuals. So I think that is really key.

Yeah, interesting. So you said you're catering to children as well as adults. With adult learners, there come specific challenges, especially when you talk about executive functioning. And I see that in a lot of my students too who come in as neurodiverse students. So how do you tailor support to address these?

And what do you think are the skills that the school should prioritize? Just just, you know, piggybacking on the last question. But how do you think the school should prioritize to ease the post secondary transition for these students?

We actually offer an executive functioning assessment called the Brief A, which gives a profile of an individual's executive functioning skills. And for anyone who doesn't know, executive functions are the brain's management skills. So being able to plan, prioritize, focus, remember things, etcetera. And executive functions actually start developing in early childhood, and they continue to develop until your mid to late twenties. It's a very lengthy process.

And what we commonly see are mixed executive functioning profiles for adult learners, which makes sense because neurodivergence does impact executive function development and learning. One of the things I think people don't realize is that those skills need to be practiced, and they're usually implicitly taught, which means that people typically learn them by watching other people, social modeling, or through social norms and expectations. So if you imagine telling a child, Okay, go pack your bag for school. If that child has strong executive functioning skills, they're going to use their working memory to think about, Okay, what day is it using planning to check their schedule? What books do I need?

What materials do I need? And they'll probably be able to resist any distractions. So those steps weren't actually explained, but it was expected to happen. So if you have a child who struggles with executive functioning, they might not intuitively know how to break down that task. So what ends up happening is they miss a couple of steps or they get distracted and then they're labeled as being lazy or defiant, but they actually just don't know what they need to do.

So in my opinion, executive function skills should be taught explicitly from early childhood onwards. And I think one of the most important executive function skills is emotional regulation, and that's because learning is most effective when somebody is regulated. So I think that would be the most effective.

What challenges did you face before your ADHD diagnosis, and how have you addressed them since? How can neurodivergent individuals advocate for themselves in environments that may not fully understand their needs?

So my biggest challenge continues to be a challenge, and even a challenge that I think most neurodivergent individuals face, is really trying to fit into those rigid neurotypical systems. And that often involves a lot of masking. And I mean, before my diagnosis, I did start exploring different systems and ways to approach tasks wherever I felt like I had the freedom to do so. But now in the last couple of years, I've been really taking more purposeful steps to learning more about myself and trying different ways of doing things to see if something might be easier or better for me to do. And I think for most people, neurodivergent especially, it's helpful to understand who you are and what you need, and then you can learn to communicate that to other people.

And that definitely takes a lot of it does take time. It takes a lot of courage to do that, but that time and effort is worth the result.

Yeah. I get sometimes students are very clear about what kind of supports they need. So sometimes, you know, I may record the lectures for them. I may give them some extra resources. And just to make sure that they are not highlighted in any way, I just give a blanket statement.

Everybody is going to get recorded lectures. Everybody is going to get the resources so that that particular student is not highlighted in any way or somebody else from outside who's looking at that student, not assume that I'm favoring them. So that's another reason why sometimes I feel some of these adult students, at least who have come into my class, try to stay away and, don't communicate. But it's interesting. Another thing I've noticed is that with women, this can be a bigger challenge.

So what do you think ADHD in women why do you think it gets undiagnosed or underdiagnosed or misdiagnosed? And what do you feel are the unique challenges that women face in ADH?

First, I just want to say how much I appreciate your action of giving the accommodation to everybody because sometimes people don't know that they need the accommodation. So when they think like, oh, well, I can't get that because I don't have a diagnosis or they don't want to ask, having access to it can make a huge difference. In terms of ADHD in women, very unfortunately, gender discrimination has been and continues to be a really significant issue in our society in many aspects. Historically, medical and scientific research has been heavily focused on males. So a lot of the information that we have about many different things, including ADHD, is cis male normative.

So for women and gender diverse individuals, that plays a really significant role in that under diagnosis or misdiagnosis. So I think when most people think about ADHD, they imagine a hyperactive boy. And that doesn't take into account other symptoms that might be possible, like inattention or that internal restlessness or emotional sensitivity. Because society expects women to be quiet and nurturing, we're told, Don't be so emotional. And we get a lot of judgment and feel a lot of shame if we're not maintaining this appearance of being the perfect human.

And that ends up causing a lot of people to mask, to suppress their natural tendencies in order to fit in or feel safe. And what ends up happening is that women who have ADHD or other brain based differences are often misdiagnosed with anxiety, depression, or borderline personality disorder. While those conditions can co occur, that root cause of ADHD goes untreated. So when you're treating the wrong thing, that really has an impact too. You think something is just wrong with you and you end up having lower self esteem or chronic stress.

There's an increased risk of substance abuse, an increased risk of abusive relationships and so on. Definitely very challenging.

Yeah. And this interesting statement that everybody says when it comes to women, Oh, it's just your hormones. It's just that time, you know? And it just completely disregards, you know, any genuine experience they are having or any challenge they are experiencing. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Are the most common misconceptions about neurodiversity you encounter and how can educators and institutions challenge these misconceptions effectively?

I think the first and the biggest misconception is that neurodiversity is a deficit. So neurodiversity is a cognitive difference. It's not a dysfunction. It impacts how we interact with the world, how we connect with people, etcetera. And the second misconception is that all neurodivergent individuals are the same.

And I

think that can really be challenged by shifting from expecting everybody to fit in the same box to being a little bit more curious. So asking, how does this person think about this? Or how do they approach this? What do they need to thrive? And if you know, you're a neurotypical person, you can think about situations or things that come easy to you and think like, okay, if I had a different way of thinking, what might that be like in this situation?

So just recognizing the privilege of being a neurotypical person in a world that is meant for neurotypical people.

Amazing. So the Institute where I teach, we actually help adults get ready for the market And the idea being that they will complete their certifications and go out into the world and start working. So this is very relevant to me when when I'm asking as an educator how systemic biases may impact the educational and professional opportunities for neurodivergent individuals, and especially people of color? Because I also get a lot of students from different parts of the world. And what steps do you think educators can take to help create more equity in all of this?

I mean, so first I want to say that I am speaking as a white individual. I have done a lot of research and I continue to try to educate myself as best as possible. And what I have learned is that neurodivergent people of color often experience very layered forms of discrimination in how they are perceived or supported opportunities that they have access to. When we think about how people of color are likely to be perceived in society, it usually looks like being defiant or aggressive, and they tend to face harsher consequences for those behaviors that are linked to neurodivergence. They end up being heavily misunderstood and over disciplined.

And like I mentioned with the male normative research, we see a lot of white normative research. So individuals of color experience under diagnosis or misdiagnosis because of that bias in the diagnostic process. There's also very much a lack of culturally informed practices, which can be very challenging. I think it's essential that we approach inclusion through more of an intersectional lens and look at how race, disability, gender, culture, and identity, all of those things, how they interact with how we design equitable opportunities and processes. Again, that really starts with building authentic relationships and validating those lived experiences and just making sure that we're including those people in shaping policies and decisions.

In educational practice, specifically challenging biases and reflecting on how classroom norms that we follow could be rooted in those white cisgendered neurotypical norms and making sure that we are doing what we can to challenge that and to change that.

So it also depends on the institution, Right? I mean, the institution has to be open to implementing and giving the supports that are needed. Right? So, Paul, you may remember we were having this conversation yesterday, and I I was telling Paul about this interesting case that came my way. I had a student who was in my class and she gives the first exam and she doesn't do really well in that exam.

Right? And anyhow, she continues coming into my classes, but just before her second exam, because this was a two part, you know, two exam based course. So I get a request on accommodations for her. And I'm I'm very confused. I'm like, well, this student gave this exam without the accommodations.

Now why do we need the accommodations? So it turns out because of the exam she gave, she realized she has some probable challenges, and then she went ahead and got diagnosed. Right? So sometimes I feel and and, again, like, to your point, people from different cultures, different backgrounds, different nationalities, nationalities, different religions, different taboos in their society may not feel comfortable approaching, especially in a foreign country, to say to a teacher, by the way, I think I have this. I'm not sure.

Because, again, the instructor might say, oh, you're making excuses, like, to exactly to your point, but the student may feel devalued or unheard. So there's so many things that come into play, right?

Definitely. Something that really sticks out for me after hearing you say that, I delivered a workshop for some post secondary instructors. And one of the things that I typically recommend, like you do, is to give the accommodation generally. So if you're going to give extra time on a test, give everybody that extra time on a test. And one of the instructors said, Okay, but that doesn't seem fair because now people who don't need that have an advantage.

And I said, Okay, but why do you give a timed test anyway? At the end of the day, are they really going to be doing these things under timed pressure? I mean, in some instances, yes, but if you're teaching something like literature, like, is somebody really going to need to do that under a time pressure? So what difference does it make if everybody has that extra time? And I think that's really important to recognize is that some of the systems we have in place don't actually make sense to the real world anyway.

So why wouldn't we give people accommodations? And, you know, we hear like, Oh, people are taking advantage, but that percentage is so, so small. So, so small.

How does neurodiversity intersect with mental health challenges, and what unique needs arise from this intersection? How can society reduce the stigma around both?

It's important to note that neurodivergence is not a mental health challenge, but neurodivergent individuals are two to three times more likely to experience mental health challenges than neurotypical people. And the reason for that is because they are facing so many barriers to be able to participate in society in a way that makes sense for them. So they're very much intertwined with each other. I could probably go on and on for so long about this. I do have a community workshop on our website that's called Neurodiversity and Mental Health, which talks all about this.

Really reducing the stigma around both just starts by talking about it. So not having that pressure to mask or fit in. The solution isn't just like, go to therapy, more therapy, more therapy. Therapy can help. But it's really about systemic change.

So reducing stigma means normalizing differences, offering real accommodations.

Eckie Bishop's journey exemplifies the transformative power of advocacy, community, and understanding in creating equitable opportunities for neurodivergent individuals. Her work with LDS continues to challenge systemic barriers, foster inclusive education, and inspire meaningful change. By sharing her personal experiences and professional insights, Becky highlights the importance of addressing misconceptions, promoting psychological safety, and tailoring support to individual needs. As society progresses toward greater inclusivity, Becky's story serves as a reminder of the impact that empathy, education and collaboration can have in empowering neurodivergent learners and building a more equitable future for all. Connect with Becky Bishop or learn more about her work, reach out through LGS or follow her advocacy journey on social media and professional platforms.

We will provide all of them in our show notes. That's all for today's episode of the neurodiversity voices cast. Thank you so much for tuning in and being part of this important conversation.

We hope you found today's discussion insightful and inspiring. Remember, every voice matters, and together, we can create a more inclusive and understanding world for neurodivergent individuals. You like

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