The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast

Welcome back to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast. I'm Paul Cruz.

I'm Letara Couto.

And we will host this episode. We're so excited to welcome today's guest, Tamsen Hawken, a specialist mental health mentor supporting university students across The UK who completed her PhD at the University of Bath. What makes Tamsen's work so impactful is her lived experience. As a queer, neurodivergent woman who grew up in a rural, Cornish village, Tamsen knows firsthand the power of visibility, support, and finding your voice in spaces that weren't always built for you. She's passionate about creating inclusive, empowering environments.

We cannot wait for you to hear her story.

Tamsen and I both found purpose through our struggles through neurodivergence and parenting neurodivergent children and through navigating identity and finding your voice in academia. That whole idea of transforming challenging experiences into something empowering for others is what draws people like us to advocacy and psychology. How do you feel about that whole multiple, Tamsen?

Yeah, thank you for that introduction. It's really good to be here and recording today. I'm really looking forward to sharing more about my experience, my personal experience, my experiences through my work and yeah, just that kind of key part of creating the inclusive empowering environment because that just feels so important to me and I just recognise and constantly see the value of providing a safe place for people to just be themselves and actually sometimes learn who they actually are. So I can't wait to share more about that.

Can you share more about your journey of self discovery and how you came to your ADHD diagnosis?

So my sort of journey with my diagnosis and getting some of those labels for myself began a couple of years ago when I, my living situation changed enormously. I was living nomadically so everywhere I went my home came with me. And I lost that sort of in an instant. It meant that I kind of was confronted with a realisation that that way of living had been really supporting me and my well-being. So to lose that and to have to start living between four walls and in a house again, just little things like forgetting my ID card to get into work or forgetting my lunch.

Whereas previously I'd been able to just nip out to my van because that's what I was living in and grab those things or I forgot my gym gear. It's fine, it's all in my van, I don't have to remember anything. Equally if I needed to be somewhere early I could travel, drive nearby, stay nearby, and not have to worry about being on time or anything that might kind of get in the way. So all of those kinds of strategies were just pulled out from underneath me and my life started feeling very, very chaotic in a way that it hadn't for quite a long time. So I started to consider the possibility that I might have ADHD.

I spoke with a few people and actually the majority of people were kind of like, I wouldn't say that. Like of all the neurodivergent boxes that wouldn't be the one I'd dip. And I didn't really think anything of those comments until a few months later I was working one to one with a kind of a coach and she sent me a link to a list of traits autistic traits in women. I looked through the list and was kind of gobsmackedincredibly rattled because I was like, oh wow, I feel like I tick every single one of these. That was when I kind of started to consider the possibility that I might be autistic as well.

I kind of journeyed with that a little, a little bit, decided to try and seek a diagnosis. And then it was just over a year later that I was diagnosed with autism. And then a few months after that, that I was also diagnosed with ADD. The ADD diagnosis was about six months ago and the autism diagnosis was about eleven months ago. So coming up to a year.

And how did that feel growing up in like a very rural village?

I think I didn't really kind of notice anything really in terms of my neurodivergence. I don't think I really noticed anything growing up. Was, I lived on a farm, I was outdoors all the time. Like in many ways my environment was quite supportive of my neurodivergence. And even in kind of school, the kind of classic traits, if you like, the stereotypical traits weren't really there.

So I think in some ways it really helped because I was in a supportive environment in a sense of it just, nobody really kind of battered my lid, but equally there wasn't a great deal of representation either. So I think that's partly why it took me such a long time to start to have those realizations.

How has your lived experience as a neurodivergent individual shaped your approach to mentoring students?

It's been a massive learning curve for sure. I remember when I first started in the role in sort of late twenty nineteen, I would have students sort of say to me, particularly female students say to me, oh, I think I have ADHD, like I'm pursuing a diagnosis. And I remember thinking, being exactly the person that, you know, I found frustrating when I was going through my kind of process of kind of being thinking, really, you don't seem like the kind of person that would have ADHD. Because I was pretty clueless about it really, you know, like a lot of people, I just had that classic naughty boy at the back of the classroom, couldn't focus, know that very outward representation and manifestation of ADHD. But I had these students coming in and saying, yeah I've got a diagnosis, I've got a diagnosis, which made me have to really change my views and what I thought in my head somebody with ADHD looked like or you know came across as which was quite confronting at times.

I'm like oh my gosh I've had everything wrong. I'm actually really, really grateful to the students that I've worked with who have allowed me to kind of journey with them. I would never have learned as much about neurodivergence if I hadn't been working with some of these students who were exploring it for themselves and sharing it with me. I think that's such a privilege and working one on one with people and figuring it out together as we go along I think is the best training possible. Know I was always very careful to make sure that the approach I was taking was helpful rather than harmful.

For the most part that's been the case. But it's made me realise and how my own experiences I think have impacted the work I do is that I was really grateful for the people who celebrated my neurodivergence as I was exploring it even before I got a diagnosis. I always kind of say the people who kind of saw my stripes and really appreciated them, You know, they kind of saw all of that and allowed me to unmask and to figure it out. And now, as I've said before, that's something that I'm really committed to is being a space where people can figure it out and be clumsy and practice being assertive and actually maybe, you know, feeling like they're being a bit blunt or asking for their needs to be met in a particular way and allowing them to figure that out in a safe space so that they can get the confidence to be able to do that, you know, out in the real world inverted commas. I think as well, my lived experience is one that doesn't fit the stereotypes of the naughty boy at the back of the classroom.

I was never that person. I was the grade A, really diligent, really attentive to some extent student because studying was kind of and learning was kind of my special interest when I was younger. So it's also made me really go there is no single way that somebody who's neurodivergent presents.

So when you say unmasking, can you explain a little bit more about what that was like for you or for some of your students?

Yeah, for me, it's really interesting because when I was exploring both aspects of ADHD and autism, the ADHD I was relatively okay with. The autism, I was like, oh my gosh, this changes everything. I think there was an element of ADHD. You can get medication and there's almost like a treatment as such for it. And ADHD is kind of like something you have and autism is something you are.

That was kind of how my brain interpreted it at the time. Interestingly, for me, my autistic traits are ones that are actually quite valued. Things like organization and being on time and being really, you know, attention to detail, being quite a good friend in that sense, remembering birthdays, remembering that that friend had an appointment last week and asking how it went. However, the ADHD traits were less kind of appreciated and socially acceptable. They were forgetting to reply to messages or putting off replying to a message and then thinking I've left it too long.

I can't possibly do that now. Or, you know disappearing off the face of the earth for a couple of weeks and then being like full on for another couple of weeks. Not being as kind of organized in some areas of my life as others. So the unmasking was really a challenge for me with the ADHD because I also valued how organised I was. So yeah, the ADHD unmasking was a lot harder for me, but equally I don't know whether I'd call it unmasking sort of honing those kind of autistic traits and actually not being ashamed of them I guess.

So yeah, the ADHD unmasking was a lot harder for me. But equally, I don't know whether I'd call it unmasking but sort of owning those kind of autistic traits and actually not being ashamed of them, I guess.

Ashamed. Yeah. That's I find, like why I said label in the beginning is because I just find that sometimes when I can label my traits as, like, this is not, something that I should be ashamed of. This is something that comes from dealing with ADHD. And if I actually just label it, then I can figure out some things that I can do.

But once I can say, oh, this is because, you know, I have rejection sensitivity and it actually has nothing to do with me and I can label it as that, then it's actually easier for me when I get in that zone to be like, nope, this is actually just what we're dealing with. And it's okay. Everybody has their own lives and everybody's busy. That it's so much easier for me to accept it. And it is true, like, to not take on that shame and keep it on me as if I need to collect the shame for everyone and myself.

Yes. Yeah, totally. One thing for me was kind of making peace with this idea that I'm highly strung, you know, that I need to know where and when. You know, when a friend says, oh, let's just let's just check-in. We'll meet at six and let's just decide beforehand what we're gonna do.

No, sorry. Oh, I can't do it. Some days I can, if I'm the one saying it, but that's the irony I think of the ADHD autism is kind of like somebody else is organizing something. Need to know where, when, what. But if my kind of ADHD is in the driving seat, I'm like, yeah, sure.

You know, whatever. Let's, let's do, let's organize it nearer the time.

Yeah. Again, because it goes back to that owning it. Right. It's so true. Once you can say this is because of this and you can own it, then it's easier to talk about it openly and find those safe spaces where they do accept your stripe.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely.

What message would you like to share with educators and professionals working with neurodivergent individuals?

Be open minded. Whenever somebody says to you know, I'm neurodivergent, I'm autistic, I have ADHD, I'm dyslexic, whatever it might be, try as hard as you possibly can to keep your mind open and kind of talk to this person as if they're the first person you've ever met, you know, who's neurodivergent. Like seeing them as like a fresh slate, a fresh page and don't put judgments or stereotypes or preexisting ideas onto that person because they're going to be probably finding things hard anyway. And they, they don't need that. Just being open minded to what their experience might be and what their needs might be as well.

As easy as possible for people to ask for their

needs to be met,

They might not be able to be met, know, the need that they have might not be able to be met in the way that they would ideally like to. You know maybe it just can't work because of the system or whatever resources, whatever it might be. But being open and giving them a space where they can ask, think is so important because it actually empowers people to take responsibility for themselves and to feel an element of pride when they ask for their needs to be met, you know, rather than them being kind of second guessed or that kind of thing.

Yeah. I, I find it just very interesting that you yourself, with autism and ADHD have spoken one on one to people and have had that same thought. Like, oh, I didn't you don't look you don't seem like neurodivergent. So what if what could you say to an educator or just a person that has no experience with neurodivergency that they know of to be a little more open minded unlike how sometimes you used to have that thought?

Like I say just being really kind of conscious of what biases might be coming in, what judgments might be coming in. And then also educating yourself and educating yourself from a variety of sources. You know, books, YouTube, social media. There's some amazing stuff on social media at the moment and actually social media, Facebook, Instagram, you know, that's been huge for me learning about myself.

And understanding because we're all going, we all deal with someone or deal with ourselves experiencing neurodivergencies. And I just find what's very empowering about social media is listening to somebody else's lived experience. And then being like, oh my goodness, I'm not alone.

Yeah. But also what I love is going, oh, this person's autistic. And they say something and I'm like, no, that doesn't capture me at all. But how amazing, you know, that's the whole spectrum. Like how amazing that I've just learned about how autism is experienced for somebody else.

And I try really hard now to expose myself to different groups of people, you know, older people who have got a diagnosis, people in their fifties, sixties, seventies even, exposing myself to that. Mothers, I'm not a mother, but exposing myself to parents who are kind of dealing with neurodivergence.

Have you found spaces in academia that truly feel inclusive and adaptive or is this still something we're working toward?

I haven't and it's interesting. I actually put a post out on social media about this today because I loved academia and in many ways I thrived in it. Patterns, collecting data, putting structures in place, research. Absolutely loved it teaching, really enjoyed that. I applied for a couple of lectureships, got interviews, but turned them down.

I got offered a postdoc. I turned that down because there was just something in me that was like, I don't think I'm cut out for academia. That was kind of what I was saying. And it felt like a truthful statement and not a self deprecating one either. It was just, we're a mismatch.

Now what I realise is actually academia isn't cut out for me. It's not that I'm not right for academia, it's just that academia isn't or at least when I was applying sort of five, six years ago, academia wasn't cut out for me. It wasn't accessible for me. The amount of energy and work that it took to be able to operate and function within academia in a way that didn't mess me up was so big that I was kind of like, I don't, I can keep doing this. I don't, I want to use this energy in other areas of my life.

And at that point I didn't even know I was neurodivergent. You know, that point it was more about having a chronic illness and having to manage that alongside academia. So I think it's something that we're still working towards. I haven't been in academia for five or six years now. Obviously I have an insight into it with the students I work with.

I think the students I work with, some of them find pockets of inclusive and accessible spaces. It might be a particular lecturer or tutor that they have a real affinity with and gets the way their brain works, celebrates it, works in the right way. Or it could be within a society that's based on a student society that's based on their special interest. And suddenly they're like, oh, these people are kind of like me in a similar way. But I definitely think there's still a lot of work to do and that's again why I'm so passionate about being that space because I haven't had it and I know how positive having it can be that if I can, you know, even if I only worked with someone for a few weeks, I want them to go away feeling like the space I provided was supportive and inclusive and adaptive, you know, and accessible and all of those kind of buzzwords, but essentially safe.

That's something I am so like talk about until the cows come home, making students feel safe, being a safe space where everything is welcome, like everything.

I wanted you to so the safe space and you talked about like your friends accepting your stripes. I know you have this beautiful story about the zebra and the manuals and I just wanted you to elaborate on that because I think everyone needs to hear that.

People were talking to me and kind of saying, well, why do you want to get a diagnosis? Why do you want to get a label? You know, why is that important? Just be yourself. Just find places where you're accepted and all of this kind of thing.

I had a, I had this dream during the diagnosis process, where I was in this field and I knew that I was a creature of some sort. And I was in a field with horses and I was looking around at these horses and I couldn't keep up with them. The food they were eating didn't agree with me and I was just different to them. And eventually it kind of transpired in this dream that I was actually a zebra. I wasn't a horse and being able to kind of realize, okay, I'm not just a funny looking horse.

I'm actually a zebra and actually being in an environment that is supportive of zebras and you know have other zebras around me is really valuable. That kind of moment of being like, oh okay I'm not the wrong version of something else, I am actually different. And that kind of being a positive thing. The other kind of metaphor and the other thing that I used to say to people was about how actually getting a diagnosis very much felt like being given the right manual for my brain. And I compared it to two kitchen appliances, a kettle and a toaster, and how both of these items heat something up.

But you do not want to be putting water into the toaster and you do not want to be putting bread into the kettle because that's not going to go well. And it's kind of like, oh, actually I've had a manual for a kettle when I've always been a toaster. And it's like, okay, now I've actually got the right manual. I can start kind of using myself in the way that I was meant to and actually functioning in the way I was meant to, and getting the outcomes that I was meant to.

Yes. I love those stories. Honestly, I've been thinking about this since the first time we talk. I think they're so amazing. I've even talked to my students about them.

So I'm glad we got, I hope everyone hears that because wow, what a powerful thing to say and what a powerful dream to have when you're on that journey.

Yes. And what's even weirder is that in '20, gosh, when would it have been 2013, 2014? I was visiting a friend and like four or five hours away from Bath where I was at the time. And we went into this garden center and I am not an art person. Like I can appreciate art, but I don't really buy it.

It never even crossed my mind. But there was this picture on the wall of these two zebras. It's not the one like I've got one behind me now, but it's not that one, but they are kind of like interlaced. Their heads are sort of on each other's sort of shoulders. One is black and white and the other one is rainbow colored.

And I bought it and I couldn't really afford it at the time. I had no idea where I was going put it. We couldn't, we could only just fit it in her little cart on my friend, But I had to have it. And now, know, ten years later, I look at it and I just think, oh wow, I had no idea how special that piece of art was actually going to become because it just feels like it represents everything and I'll never ever get rid of it.

Definitely meant to have that. And zebras must mean something special to you.

Yeah, absolutely. My special interest at the moment and has been for the last couple of years is horse riding. So I think there's like an element of that. That's possibly why that dream kind of came through. And then also the zebras that I was looking at constantly, on my wall, it kind of came together for that perfect dream.

That was really helpful and actually gave me, like I said, gave me a way to explain it to people and helped them to kind of go, oh, actually. That makes sense. My special interest at the moment and has been for the last couple of years is horse riding. So I think there's like an element of that. That's possibly why that dream kind of came through.

And then also the zebras that I was looking at constantly, on my wall, it kind of came together for that perfect dream. That was really helpful and actually gave me, like I said, gave me a way to explain it to people and helped them to kind of go, oh, actually. Yeah, that makes sense.

That's amazing. I love a good metaphor too. And I just find like what a beautiful thing to go through while you're going through your journey of diagnosis and also being able to express what's actually happened inside of you to people and not hiding. But also being able to express it in a way where you're being so true to yourself. I love a good metaphor.

Like, for us, like, if there's a student maybe going into post secondary and they're kind of on a similar journey to you, what advice would you give someone just entering post secondary or transitioning or who's feeling unsure or just even invisible?

My advice would be to try and find, sometimes create a space where they didn't feel invisible, where they did feel seen, which can be so, so hard to do when you're feeling unsure because that's a really, really vulnerable place to be in when you yourself are uncertain and haven't got things figured out to then be seen in that place by somebody else. It takes an enormous amount of courage. Finding that space if you can, I think is really, really important? The other thing, and my students I think sometimes I don't see it but I sense like an eye roll at the end of my sessions or during my sessions when I'm kind of like, you know what I'm going to say, which is to be kind with yourself, to be gentle with yourself, to give yourself a bit of grace, to recognize you might get it wrong and you might explain things wrong to certain people, or you might come out of a situation and be like, I really didn't want a mask there, but I did. Being compassionate with yourself and like I say, giving yourself that grace and time to figure things out.

Most people have that process of finding their self identity during childhood, maybe teens. And people tend to give people that age a bit more grace and a bit more sort of permission to get it wrong and mess it up. So as you get older I think that gets less and less. There's less patience, there's less kindness. So it's really important to give it, give it to yourself.

And there will be days where you feel like the grottiest person on the planet. That you feel like you just mess everything up or that you're doing it wrong or you're not cut out for it. Creating that safe space is about in a first session what I'm doing is trying to put people at ease. I'm telling them that everything is welcome and that I am never judging. I'm not sort of thinking, oh wow that person has just told me that they haven't brushed their teeth for five days.

I'm not thinking, ew, I'm thinking okay what's going on there? You know what's happening there? And approaching it with curiosity and compassion. So making that known to the students that I'm working with from the get go that like I say all is welcome, there isn't anything really that could shock or surprise me or make me think badly of them. And that's mainly because I felt that process with myself.

Know, I've looked at some really dark parts of myself that I didn't really like and tried to hide and felt a lot of shame about. And I've, you know, sort of shone a light on those and really got to grips with them. So kind of being able to hold that space for myself feels like I can then hold that space for other people. So all is welcome. And modelling.

Modelling a lot of the time. Being kind to myself if because my autism doesn't let it happen but if I'm running a couple of minutes late, you know, apologizing but being kind to myself and obviously taking responsibility, being kind to myself and taking my vacation and my holiday when I need it. Practicing what I preach a lot of the time. More recently where it's felt appropriate, potentially sharing my own experiences if I feel like it can help a student go, I'm not the only one, you know, kind of like you were saying before that they're not completely on their own with it. Cause a lot of the things that they're sharing, they do feel shame around.

They do feel vulnerable around and they may not have actually told anyone before. So always holding that with a sense of privilege and honoring what they're sharing. And like I say, if it feels appropriate kind of being like, yeah, you know, I can understand that. And this is how that is for me. I've had students be like, oh wow.

Okay. That means I'm not crazy. And I'm like, well, it either means you're not crazy or it means we go far. So, you know, it depends whether you feel like you're in good company or not. But yeah, you know, that's, that's a shared kind of experience.

Yes. And thank you for the reminder that we're not actually broken, that sometimes we just have been reading the wrong manual.

Exactly. Yeah. Or we've put these coping strategies in place that actually once served a purpose and maybe no longer do, because I think that's the other thing is sometimes I'll have students who are behaving in ways that they, they kind of know aren't right and that doesn't feel right to them. So not right as in like right or wrong externally, but doesn't feel right to them. They kind of know there's a better way or a different way that they could be handling it.

But the first step is that awareness of what's this actually doing for me? Like it must be doing something positive for me. It must be serving some kind of purpose. So like as an example, and this is kind of leaning more into the kind of mental health side of things as opposed to necessarily like neurodivergence. But I had one student who used to drink quite a lot of alcohol and would send messages to friends saying that she wasn't in a very good place.

And those friends would be like, I'll be right over. They would come over, she'd hang out with them. And the next day she would feel quite a lot of shame and regret about the way that she'd handled it. So we kind of explored that and we said, okay, well how is this actually benefiting you? What are you getting out of it?

What need is being met by you doing that? And the trick was that she felt really lonely but she didn't feel worthy of messaging a friend and being like, Hey, I'm feeling a bit lonely. Do you fancy popping over tonight? You know, there was the fear of rejection. There was a lot going on.

So it was like, okay, now we know what this is doing for you. We can find and explore other ways to meet that need. So it's, it's kind of going, we're not broken. And these, but these coping strategies might be now, you know, they once served a really, really helpful purpose. They helped you survive potentially.

Whereas now maybe there's a different way or a better way. And I think that's where the kind of trauma informed aspect of my work comes in where it's kind of recognizing that.

That's amazing. So do you talk about this stuff on social media and where can people follow you?

Yes. So I do talk about this stuff on social media. I am on Instagram and I am on Facebook, Tamsin Hawkin PhD. That's kind of where you can find me. And yeah, I'm posting about things and I'm actually in the process of sort of developing a couple of online courses that are around things like self advocacy for people dealing with long term health conditions, mental health conditions, neurodivergence, like within academia, within studies.

So yeah, how to advocate for your needs, how to even know what your needs are in the first place. And yeah, I've got a couple of other courses in the pipeline as well.

Amazing. So Timton Harkins, PhD?

Yes, that's me.

Do you want us to add, promote, or share anything with our listeners?

Don't think so. Just my social media and just that I do work privately. I've got some availability to take on private students over the next couple of months. I work with students 16 plus online. So I work remotely with them and I can do more coaching.

So just a few weeks or months of really focused work, but then also kind of more on the more mentoring side that tends to be longer term and a bit more sort of gentle and a bit more holding and going a bit deeper than the coaching.

If you leave listeners with one key takeaway about embracing neurodivergence, what would it be?

It's really ironic because I said about my students rolling their eyes whenever I say it, being kind to yourself, having patience with yourself, recognizing neurodivergence, coming to terms with neurodivergence. Those are the steps before embracing it. And it can be rocky. It can be really painful. It can be a lot of grief.

There can also be a lot of joy. And it's being kind to yourself and embracing all aspects of it because actually embracing it and learning about it and being kind to yourself in the process means that you can explore so much about yourself and start to feel proud of who you are, which means you then get to show more of who you are to the world, which in my eyes is one of the most important things that we do in our lifetime, is to become more of ourselves and to share that with other people.

I miss and the grace. It's a beautiful thing to leave off on because grace is something something that's really, I feel like, easy for some people who experience neurodivergence to give, but not necessarily to ourselves. So give yourselves grace and kindness, the same as you would to others. But thank you so much, Tamsen, for coming on the Neurodiversity Voices podcast and letting people hear everything you have to say because what a little treasure trove of information.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been really lovely and I always think these opportunities are a continuum of that embracing your neurodivergence. Know, This in itself for me is an embracing. It's sharing it.

I haven't really shared openly prior to this, so not online anyway. So actually it's been a really kind of a gift for me actually to be able to do this. So thank you.

Yeah, thank you for coming and sharing. And you know what? Everyone's going to benefit by listening to this and just feeling less alone.

Hope so. Yeah, I really hope so.