Designing for Every Mind: Angus Chan on Education Reform

Hello, I'm your host Paul Cruz and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast where we celebrate and amplify the unique perspectives and experiences of neurodiverse individuals. I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey of exploration, advocacy, and celebration of neurodiversity.

I'm Tayaba Khan, your co host. Together, we'll have meaningful conversations, share inspiring stories, and challenge misconceptions about neurodiversity.

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So sit back, relax, and let's get started. Welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast. Welcome to the show, Angus.

Thanks, Paul. Thanks for having me. Good to see you, Doctor. Khan. Thanks for being with me.

Yes. Can

you share your journey in higher education and what inspired you to focus on learning assessment, curriculum development, and student success?

Great. So my journey in higher education started in 02/2001, and it was rough at first. I flunked out of university, SFU, wasted $20,000 of my mom's dollars with 51, 53 credits and 1.91 GPA and no retakes in business administration, but with help and support managed to go back in again in 2005 and, go on to do psychology and then a master's in educational psychology. What this has led me to while I was TAing from 2000 onwards was that, well, there are a lot of things I learned the hard way and I wish to help students along the way. So they don't have to learn the hard way necessarily that I've gone through, others have gone through.

So that was a prime motivation in sort of education in the post secondary world. And I'll just pause from there. That's the start of my journey.

Great. So your article on the history of Asperger's syndrome and autism spectrum disorder is fascinating. What motivated you to explore this topic and how has your perspective evolved around this?

Right. My perspective continues to evolve as the, spectrum of ASD continues to evolve. So in that sense, when I wrote the article, I was in my graduate school and I wanted a way to explore and articulate where my understanding of Asperger's syndrome has evolved. That's what I was diagnosed with when I was young in the beginning. And I could only learn from what my family has told me and what I can learn from the intervention center back in Hong Kong and what they did.

So it was a research project, a reflection project, and at the same time, it was a way to look at how the diagnosis and the labeling and the connotation of Asperger's syndrome has evolved from this process now that it's part of the ASD spectrum. And one thing that I kept in mind as I was writing this is that, you know somebody with autism, you only know that person with autism. And even if I have it myself, I really only know myself and whoever I'm in contact with. So it was a good way to remind myself and to communicate with readers that even though Asperger's syndrome is no longer in use, if there are people that still identify with that or identify themselves as that, then they have their own sort of context.

So your diversity statement emphasizes acknowledging uniqueness in pursuing equity, quote end end quote. How do you apply this philosophy in your work and interactions with students and colleagues?

Right, so in each of the roles that I would do this with different partners in this sort of partnership. I work a little differently for each. So let's say I start with coworkers in the administration or in the school context, then I play my role as either academic quality assurance coordinator or sessional instructor right now, or before I was a manager of student services. So it depends, and I play to that role, working with folks in their role in that context. So the goal is the same though.

It would be to work with staff and faculty for promoting student success. And in the administrative world right now, I would work with them in terms of program reviews, course evaluations, and beginning to do some institutional research. And then I have to pay attention to what the faculty, the deans, the sessional instructors, the tenured professors, what they want. And then when I work as a instructor, I work with other instructors who have their way of teaching the course. Work with department heads, which have to manage the department.

And then I also work with students and student services, for students they want to study and complete their academic or professional goals, or the student services that are there to help the students. I pay attention to what they want to do and then see how I can contribute to that.

That's very interesting. Your leadership philosophy basically embraces the idea of a reciprocal relationship, right, in between, you know, between service and leadership, and you kind of talked about the service piece here, right?

Yes.

So how you know, and you've already kind of, you know, elaborated how you work with staff, faculty, and stakeholders. But what do you think is the secret sauce that kind of, you know, makes it work? How how does this happen?

One thing I learned from working in the vulnerable sector during my transition period of graduating from a master's in ed psych and then going back into teaching, it took me seven years into the nonprofit sector. One thing I learned from working with counselors and government funded agencies for youth transition groups that go into adulthood is the idea of an informed decision. And that I think this works quite well in terms of leadership, then we have decisions to make. It's like the word problem we discussed earlier. It's like, okay, that's the problem to be solved.

The question to be answered this information and resources used to answer those questions to solve a problem. And then the roles, skills, and so forth to make the information work to solve the problem. So in terms of relationally speaking, and in terms of leadership, there are goals to be accomplished, but then how do we come to an informed decision about how we can allocate our resources and ourselves time and effort to accomplish those goals together? And the key here, the secret sauce I think would be to do this together. So sometimes it's pushing, sometimes it's pulling, but we're in it together.

You referenced a lyric from Phil Collins in your teaching philosophy. How does this lyric resonate with your approach to teaching and learning?

Right. So, just in case, the lyric is from, one of the Kyptho Collins song. It's, featured in the movie Tarzan. And the lyric goes, In learning you will teach and in teaching you will learn. So again, continue with that sort of reciprocal theme or that cyclical theme there.

As an educator, I think if I stop learning, then I should stop teaching. There's no point anymore in that sense, because it's like stagnant water, so to speak, I were to use an analogy. Me to keep going, I need to keep flowing. So in terms of that, how I would apply this is, yes, I'm assigned to teach things. I have curriculum guides I need to follow.

I have learning outcomes that I would accomplish with my students, but at the same time, the appropriate opportunities, go, how can I do this better? What can help the students learn more and what is going on with the students right now? So it isn't necessarily learning to, like, let's say a designation or to become no more knowledgeable, although that's part of the process. It's also learning about the people I'm working with and go like, okay, what makes them work? What makes them tick?

One indication for me, as an educator is, a success of teaching somebody something is that if they also want to teach others, it doesn't have to be officially, they become a teacher or a tutor to do it, but if they start teaching each other or just learning from each other, yes, you can insert like educational terms, scaffolding and peer collaborative work, anything like that, that they begin to work with the concept of skill and they start to teach and learn on their own. The teacher then I believe has done more of the job than just transmitting information or trying to teach a skill.

So I was talking to a family member of mine and I have a teenage son and we were discussing how the future workforce is going to be a completely different, you know, realm compared to what we have been learning and what we have been doing, what we have been taught. So it's not just teaching them the concepts now. It's more about, okay, how do you develop the resilience to learn new things, to do new things? And how do you incorporate that with the rising awareness of the different neurodiverse types and how are you going to bring this all together to make it work? Right?

So it's an interesting transition, I think, in terms of workforce in the future. AI definitely creates a, you know, adds a new spice to the mix. Right? So, yes, please go ahead.

No, no, no. You might have a question. So if you got a question, please ask me. I have some thoughts about that. It gets all of them the idea of teaching the next generation and also the idea, let's say the emergence of AI, actually the rising of AI.

One thing I'd say about that is as I work with students, more schools, including the school I teach at Alexander college, they're trying to put transferable skills as part of their curriculum. It's like, okay, this is the reason why you're learning this. And in adult education, it's not just pedagogy, it's also andrology and also hutabology, which is like adult education and also self directed education. So it's not just the more knowledgeable person teaching less knowledgeable people, although that often is the case. So in terms of activating intelligence, I play around with this a bit, and this came from like COVID because okay, COVID came, everyone's has to do online learning now.

And at the same time, the technology comes out, which gives students more bit of an arms race edge. Cause there's like Chegg and Course Hero and stuff like that. And ChatGPT Copilot Gemini, whatever. So one way I thought about this was what if the courses were like, let's say a piano recital. Yes.

You can have like a Simply Piano or whatever, and YouTube tutorials that like, you don't need sheet music anymore. It's like the notes coming down. It's great.

Yeah.

However, it's still, the skill still remains in the hands of the human being. As far as like, let's say piano goes. So I play around with the idea AI instead of artificial intelligence, I make it activating intelligence. Interesting. Yes.

So whether it's math or writing or time management or life skills coaching or whatever, as long as human beings are what they are, and this sounds a bit like, you know, Bruce Lee Marshall artsy, It's like, as long as it's human and human expression and humans are trained to do that, then even the technology can be used, not just as a tool, but also as a partner. And in some, like, in the media or in the way they portray, like, machines and AI, Matrix is one portrayal is like, oh, the machine's But taking in other cultures it's like, well, a lot of the film is like, well, machine is your partner. And so in that sense, if the humans can train the skill, activating intelligence, for example, math. And we talked about math can like turn people's brains off or fry their brains. Right.

But if the skill is trained to go like, you know what, you can do simple calculations, you know, your bed mass or whatever in your head. And, you know, if you can, if you realize what you can do with those things and what you can use it even in statistics, then it's like, okay, I don't need a calculator. So in the spirit of the physics film, it's like the thing with Neo that he doesn't have to dodge bullets anymore. Cause he has gone beyond that. So yes, I have to sign a class where you can learn college level statistics without a calculator.

So yes, it can be done. That's an

example. Good hope for me. There's hope for me. Yeah. For a person who runs away from maths.

And it also for the instructor, let's say, this is, this is purely instructor talking about. You have contact hours, right? Which is like, you know, you have free credit hours. And so you teach for free hours, but everybody knows that's not all you're doing. Like you have to do like email administration and office hours and prep and so forth.

So I actually made spreadsheet to quantify all that and go like, you know what, if you're teaching a new class, developing it, you're going to need more hours than if you're doing something just maintenance five years down the road. And you all those have to consider shelf life and stuff like that. But then it's like, okay, once we're able to put some precise units on everything, let's say for example, instead of counting days in a week for work, count hours in a week, one sixty eight, 24 times seven, Then it's like, I didn't need AI for that. Yes. There's tools like Monday and Workday.

Like Workday is more for managing a whole company, Monday and other things like Todoist. But then if you have that seal on your own, and this is from my stats professor, he goes, any person, and he would make the joke about monkey, can press a button on SPSS and do it. Again, he's joking. I don't wanna put him on under fire nor do I, but the

idea are is itching now.

I'm sorry. Right. Because we're on the podcast. Right? So I had to be careful.

But the idea is that it's like processed food. If you know how, what the food is made and you know how to make it yourself, you are way more informed about what's being done. So that ties in with the whole informed decision, with the leadership, with the equity. It's the idea of being informed and empowering people to make informed decisions.

Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So let's turn to Angus himself. You've shared your journey of adopting different names and identities while you were growing up.

Right? And this this is a nice story you were telling us, so I hope you would repeat that here. How has this experience shaped your understanding of cultural diversity and neurodiversity?

Right. I think as a human condition, when we name something, is taught in mythology, this is taught in psychology and also history. Once we name something, I'm paraphrasing, we have a sense of control over it. We assign value to it. And so for example, and then we can identify it.

So Asperger's syndrome, for example, named after Hans Asperger's, okay. Now it's changed to autism spectrum disorder. Okay. We're gonna add the spectrum towards that. So for me, personally speaking, my name was a way to identify myself and also as a way to manipulate or control, or at least try to change how people identify me.

My legal name is King Chi, which I guess, you know, if I sound like Kim Chi or King Kong, I had other names that people say, again, this is back in the early nineties in Wales. I was in an Anglican boarding school. So I thought, okay, my name's too different. I want to change it to something that's more Anglican. So I went with names like David and Jonathan, they didn't stick.

And in fact, the people that I was going to school with my classmates, I was like the only Asian there at the time. Everybody else was like, you know, Welsh or British or whatever. They seemed to just call me King Chi and they used it. And there was, yes, there's racism and discrimination and the occasional roughhousing, but in the end of the day, they identified me as King Chi, even though I wanted to fit in and do something different. So there was something that I wanted to do, but at the same time through there, I also learned that's not what they wanted to do.

They'll still like, you know, go to school with me. They'll still play with me from time to time or whatever. And some of them were friends with me and they just called me by my, by the name that they first heard. And there was no like, you know, politically correctness or whatever at the time, we're children. But over time I wanted to make an, find a name for myself.

And so I found somebody with the same last name as me. We're in the boarding school together. He's a couple of years older and I admired him. So I took his name Angus. That's the name that I have now.

And I thought if I took his name like an avatar, I can be that avatar. But funny enough, I was, when my mom took me to immigrate to Canada and we were as, I was successful English. So I spoke with my sort of half Welsh accent in a Canadian school. And then, so I told them my name was Angus and then the teacher goes, Oh, Angus, that's my dog's name. So I'm like, Oh shoot, now I'm named after a dog.

And inside I'm going, do I have to change my name again? There were periods of my life where I go, okay. Sometimes I wanted to fit in and change my name. Sometimes I wanted a fresh start, like the dog example, or when I flunked out of university and go, maybe changing my name would make a fresh start. But again, based on the support and things like that, it is fairly obvious, like changing my name doesn't really do anything.

It's more like changing my strategies, changing my learning style, my lifestyle that really helped make the change. So I'm sticking with Angus and maybe people call me King to say some of my legal name. Maybe someday I'll adopt that, which is closer to my legal name. But in the end now the name is just the name and maybe I can make something of it. That's where I am at now.

And in terms of culture, am from Hong Kong. It's now Chinese, I guess, but I identify as Hong Kong Chinese because Hong Kong used to be a British colony and I was raised in Wales. So I have that sort of Britishness in me. But again, at this point I go, well, I'm Angus no matter what at this point, and whatever culture I want to be identified with, I need to know my roots and then I need to acknowledge them properly. So that's where I am at now.

You are passionate about lifelong learning practices. How do you foster collaboration and inclusivity in educational settings to support neurodiverse learners?

Right. Number one, I would three things. Number one, I need to believe in what I'm learning and also believe in what I'm teaching. So I need to, that comes on that, that would drive that conviction and that passion towards it. Number two, it would be a curiosity in other people.

Again, it's hard to work with people that I don't want to know anything about. I mean, it's there, but it's kind of like the passion's gone similar to like a partnership or a romance. If the fire kind of dies in the marriage, yes, there's commitment and that's very important. But if there is a way to spice things up, curiosity would be one of the ways to do that. Yes, it helps things go along.

And number three, I think it's the idea of working together. At the end of the day, yes, there are things I go, for me, and I have to be careful about this, I go, I can do this faster, more efficiently, whatever, by myself, just based on the training. But number one, that sounds bad coming out like this. And number two, sometimes it doesn't work because there are things that is better done together. And if we need to do it together, let's say for teaching, right?

Yeah, I know the stuff, but it isn't about me. It's about the students learning this stuff. So I have to match their pace. For team projects and collaboration, yeah, of course I can do it faster, but this is not like a group project that you just need to hand a product in. No, this is building a team.

So yes, it, you do need, I had to learn, in my graduate school years, it's like you spend more time training a team, but that time, and when it goes well and when you're finished, it's worth it. So I, for example, I, I was tasked to start this club, this is international student club, and I poured my heart and soul and time in, but what really made it work three or four generations later, because I was the first student president, like four student presidents later, the people don't know me anymore. And that's a sign. This is like, no, they know the club, they know the current president, the system is established, and so I have done the job of establishing that system that I was tasked with to do. So in the sense of the leadership then, it's not this sort of like modesty or humidity type of thing, where it's like, oh no, no, it's not about me.

It is, it is has to, there's you in it, but it's about others. So there's one quote here. It's like about humidity. It isn't about thinking less of other people. It's thinking, thinking less about yourself, or isn't thinking less of yourself, it's thinking less about yourself.

Something like thinking yourself less versus thinking less about yourself.

Exactly. Yeah. That type of thing. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's true. I think the students now in particular face a challenge. Whenever you give them a group project, I always get, you know, 10 or 12 emails. Do I have to?

Yes.

Can I do this alone?

Yes.

You know, in so many words, they're they say by my coworkers and my stew you know, my group members are, you know, idiots. And, you know, I can do this better. And then you have to try to teach them. You know? You will come across people and you you can't change your coworkers.

So you have to you're better off changing your spouse, but it's a little more tricky when you're trying to change your workers. So coworkers. So you have to learn how to work with them, negotiate with them, barter with them, compromise. So I think that that's absolutely correct what you're saying. That's a very important, again, back to transferable skill that the students need to learn.

So you, in our last conversation, you were kind of mentioning about holistic wellness that you bring to your work. So how do you integrate it? Tell us the process of how do you integrate it within your educational programs and in your interactions with students.

Right. First, in any context of program, it's a matter of priority. So you can hit, you have schools that say this now, and student services that say this, your health and safety is our priority. And that is true. And if that priority remains, then at least the drive then is like, okay, it's not just about the grades.

It's not just about, let's say the employment outcome. Those are important for metrics and things like that, but for the student and for the person, then it's like, oh, okay, well, the health is first. So in that sense, let's say for teaching, then yes, as a teacher, I need to understand that the stresses that students are going through and to be careful as to like, okay, yes, the student could be stressed about, let's say completing their program on time, or they have family issues or particularly for internationals or anyone with family that's far away, they can't reach right away. What if something happens to the family? I don't want that to happen.

But if something were to happen, then they're, it's out of their reach. They want to do something, but they can't. Or if something happens to them, the family's out of their reach and it's hard to go to get help. And even for like doctor's notes, it costs money now. And if you're not insured, you're an international, it's way tougher.

So having to work with that. So systemically speaking, I believe that, and I see schools doing this, that it's important for the school to build a student support program or division that really treats that policy with respect and treat the students with respect. So then as an instructor, I can refer with confidence students to those policies and go, yes, the student service will take care of it, so the instructor can focus on the teaching and training of the student. So in that sense, if that is not there, then the instructor will have to do it, which adds to their load, but it is important to pay attention to those things. As far as for my work then, it is less so, because I deal with less with students, but I also pay attention to things like, okay, where's my own work life balance or harmony, so to speak?

And how does that tie in with my coworkers that I work with? And how is it working with them? So there are things that my director would look after in the context of my role, because I'm not, I'm not quote unquote in charge of the division per se. We have someone that does that and I leave it to that person that does that. But at the same time, I don't want to add any burden to my coworkers or to my divisional school.

So I just pay attention that way.

As an academic quality assurance coordinator, what challenges and opportunities do you encounter in creating sustainable and inclusive programs for diverse learners?

Right. I think it begins internally with the, with the teams I work with. We have a, we have a, we have a team that we're building to make a structure out of the program review. I gotta be careful. I still work in the school, but, all we're saying is, is that it's, it's going and we have, it's a work in progress and we're overcoming those challenges.

Challenges like making sure we have a structure that works for all program reviews and not just one at a time. So, and it's like, okay, it's not like we're just trying to build a plane as we fly it, which doesn't sound very good, but sometimes it has to be done that way because let's say we're understaffed or, and my position was created to have that. So I have to do my job and I want to do my job in building that structure so then everybody wins. That's one of the challenges of overcoming. In terms of the benefits then, we're seeing the benefits of like, okay, we're building that sort of awareness and building that trust for the faculty to go, yeah, we're here to help with this.

It's not just a government ministry thing that the school has to fulfill, but it also gives the faculty and the school an opportunity to receive the feedback, to give their own feedback and go, oh, what's working for us and what do we need to improve our program and make things work better for us this way. So I think that's where I'm placed right now to do that program review in the context of like course evaluation and surveys, outcomes, and also in starting in to do institutional research. So those, those are some challenges and sort of benefits are coming out of this right now, this year.

Nice. Nice. So your story is fascinating. You're coming from Hong Kong, then you went to UK, then you came to Canada, all three different, you know, completely different cultures, so to speak, you know, very, very different dynamics going on there. So, and you emphasize the importance of working with diverse communities and cultures.

So any initiatives or projects that you carried out where you were able to bring, other people from different cultures, help them gain perspective of each other?

Right, right, right. So when I was a student, I was, and a lot of it is I'm very thankful and I'd say fortunate to be given those opportunities. And then it was, it was my, the onus is on me to, you know, take it and run with it. So let's say when I was a graduate student, I, somebody asked me to run an international student club. And so, yeah, I ran with it.

It started with literally two handfuls of people, like eight people. And there was like seven staff and one international student in our first club meeting, which was kind of sad, thinking about it now. But it's gone from like the eight people to like 30 people and then 60 people. And a lot of that was thankful to, it was SFU at the time. They had the Interfaith Center and they had other clubs that saw the value of this.

And even the International Student Club at SFU, they didn't oppose. And they're like, Hey, if we can join, we would. And that's the other thing. So it was those partnership of like clubs joining other clubs and partnering up. And then the professors saw value in it and became guest speakers sometimes.

And so we are, we are numbers have gone up for the last, when I was there before years, it gone from like eight, sixteen, thirty, forty. And then at some point we reached like 80 people at one point and it goes up and down because of exams and so forth. So the initiative really worked and that was over there where I learned the importance of partnership. When I was working in student services, was, we started committees and I joined some committees like the scholarship adjudication committee. We started an international student committee and working with international students and go like, well, this is a group that needs extra help, quote unquote, not to stigmatize them, but there are reasons why they need the extra support being an international student.

That's where we were coming from. And we also have things like going out to support the vulnerable and other things like a door is open or other, other sort of urban type of work. And that was the thing that we go, okay, not only are we helping the students per se that need help, but we're also encouraging students to help others and one another. So it's that idea of like, oh, we're not just doing this for ourselves, We're doing this with other people. And maybe if we have the resources for it, we can do it for other people.

So right now in my work, in my administrative work, I look to build connections. So there are some initiatives, just some fun ones where I make office signs for, for, for father offices. Cause, the, the standard one we have is just a white piece of paper with, with words on it. Now there's me being an art school, they make their own sign, but what if like we are administrator and you just, you know, want to get on with your day, but want something nicer? I have a small background in graphic design and creating logos and stuff like that.

So I thought, okay. This is a good way for me to know the other offices to connect with them. But at the same time, there's something in it for that. Overall for the past year we've been doing that. We made about like, you know, 80 office lines, cause there's some turnover sometimes and some changes and whatnot.

Wow. Sometimes it's assigned for one person. Sometimes it's assigned for like 20 people cause they're all instructors and these are the instructors that go to that office. So then it's like, okay, it's even the purview of my work because I have to know these things so that I, it became an opportunity for me to go, okay, how can I connect with other people through that process?

Yeah. What changes or advancements would you like to see in how higher education supports neurodiverse students?

Right. In terms of changes I would like to see, this is one area that I find interesting, because I am pretty sure lots of people are talking about this, but then the ratio of how much is talked about amongst educators and amongst professionals, and even in podcasts like this, and how much gets done is totally disproportionate. I can, I don't think, I don't think that's too strong to say that? What I would like to see, again, I often like to begin with myself and I had be careful when I say this, because my wife goes, maybe it's your ego talking right now. Have my masters.

Maybe it's my turn. If it helps, if it helps, not just boost my ego or whatever, I will first say there's that. So I'm not gonna hide it. I'm not gonna deny it. It's there.

But if there's something more to it than that, let's say if it helps me help other people. Like, okay, like right now, if my master's is enough to feed my family, if it's enough to make enough impact within my surroundings and circles, that's fine. Why spend the extra money where it could be saved or whatever, right? But if there is, if circumstances lead to go, okay, I can be in a position to help more people, like let's say systemat, systemat, or an institution, it could be institutional research or educational leadership, and go for neurodiversity. Let's say, Oh, we have this.

A friend of mine, he's the director of inclusive education at Regent Christian Academy. And he was blogging about like the most recent Canadian thing where they go, Oh, the funding for inclusive education has gone down. No. And we're talking about it. Okay, well, if there is funding for UDL, Universal Design Learning for Learning, if there is funding for EDI or JEDI, which I find it ironic, the JEDI order died out.

So if you name it after Jedi, I know that might ruffle some feathers because the Yes. Anyway, the intent is there. If there's funding for these two programs and others that go like, okay, why not inclusive education, which I would believe is on the same line of these things. And it's from the K to 12 and having worked with from K to 12 and see how they're supposed to prepare students for post secondary and beyond. If the preparation is not done correctly and the gaps remain, let's say academic writing, but they don't teach that.

Math, they don't teach that enough. Time management, you go from a system of handholding students at the eight, eight, you know, day one, day two structure or whatever. And then you throw students into scheduling their own time and they think class time is all the time they got. It's like, no, in terms of that, I were in a position or somebody at least, they were in a position to go like, Hey, can make these changes in educational leadership. Maybe it starts with one school.

Maybe it goes to multiple schools. Maybe the ministry picks up on it and goes, okay, well, this theory works. Let's use it. Then it would start to benefit the municipality and maybe the city and beyond. I mean, I dream big at this point, but where I would begin is like, Hey, what sort of platform, what sort of partnerships and what sort of priorities would be there to help make that happen?

I understand there's like a learning disability society. They got some high fire folks in Vancouver that would do stuff like that. And there's alternative high schools. So I think with cumulative knowledge of this stuff, I would like to see ways of making the community and the committees go, this is how we can come together. It's a bit like the pride parade, but at the same time it's like, okay, if there are different neurodiversity agencies and organizations out there, is there a way to go, what is our united vision?

What are sort of the ways we can help schools go, okay, this will work for all parties. This will work to make the school better. One example of this would be Montessori education. Montessori's model was initially, I don't think we know this, maybe I'm speaking to the listeners, where it's like, it was initially used for vulnerable children or disabled children, but then it works so well, now it's used for gifted children. So maybe that side of thing sets precedent to go, Hey, if we do something for neurodiversity, we see the world differently.

I'm speaking we here as the neurodivergent. Or at least when we look at it through that lens, maybe there's some solutions to some long standing problems that can be solved this way. Maybe. That's And why I would like

you're so right. I mean, I see a lot of students who come into our programs and they have absolutely no clue how to manage their work. They don't know how to reach out to their teachers. They don't know even, you know, if they're stuck somewhere in their homeworks, they don't know that they don't, they don't even realize that they can actually come to the teacher and ask them. And it's

so, and you might say,

exactly. Exactly. So you're like, wow, it's for us, it's common sense. You should be as an adult learner, able to problem solve and reach out to the right people to get an answer for yourself, but you don't. And you're so absolutely right.

This is a conversation I've been having with my, one of my colleagues at work that we, post, you know, from, from high school to post graduation, the transition is so murky. And I feel like a lot of the students just fall through the cracks because they didn't know how to study. Like, you know, coming back to, you know, your experience from before, right? You had to, you had to figure yourself out as to how you would study and not everybody fits in the same mold. Right?

So, yeah, you're absolutely right. So you like, what I hear, you like spending time with your family and you like new foods, exploring new foods. Is that correct?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, food brings a lot of people together. There's a couple of quote unquote F words, not F word, that brings people together. Food is first.

And that's something we use at the International Student Cup. Food, yeah, you smell something good. You wanna eat, you're hungry. Food, something fun, friends, and then some type of fellowship, a journey or whatever. Those are some f words.

Yeah. Family. Yeah. That's important. Family.

So, yes. So

how you know, those are, of course, your personal experiences, you know, you exploring something outside, but how does, how do you think that those personal experiences have also, you know, have they helped you get a professional perspective on diversity, on inclusion?

Right. I think for me, it is interesting because I have to learn several things. Number one, me as a neurodivergent, so to speak. And then there's the people closest to me. My mom was number one in that order.

Then now it's like, sort of my I'm working on that. So then it's like, they worked with me, right? And it's like, what is their experience? A lot of folks that seek the help, it isn't necessarily the children themselves. The first one would be the parents or their primary caregiver.

It's like, they usually, usually I'm speaking in general here, usually are not neurodivergent themselves, or at least they're high functioning enough to seek the help for their children. And then now it's like a double challenge. Number one, you have to manage your own life. And number two, you have to manage that person's life and you're seeking help to do it. So in terms of professionally, it's like, okay, just me thinking about my neurodiversity is not enough.

So in a way, working for seven years in that nonprofit government sector has really helped me learn a lot because it is one other thing to work with people in that sector. Then when myself in that sector, there are advantages and disadvantages. For example, for me, and I'm just speaking freely now, it's like, I can see them and I can read them fairly quickly, because it takes one to know one so to speak. But at the same time, I have to be aware, maybe I have the similar difficulties or I have my own difficulties when I'm working with them. So for example, like from our conversation, I can take things into detail and break them down.

But when it comes to building relationship, there's no time for that. That's not what they're for. And it's just the building up the liking and it's more of a vibe thing. So it comes across as like my first impression or the things we do or the things they feel, what they feel and remember about you. So one barrier of practice for me would be my own family.

And as a personal reflection is like, yeah, I can go, I can chase towards some profession or whatever, but if I forget my family, this is a reminder for myself that my wife and I would tell myself and go like, if I forget my own son, then I failed them and I failed my own profession and so forth. So I often am reminded of that and I have to be careful of that. So in a way, the better husband and father and human being I am, I can, I can, I'm confident about my professionalism, but if I'm not no longer human, if I'm no longer a husband and father, then what's the point of me being a professional? Because that's what the people feel. And that's the bound, that's the basis of the relationship in the first place.

That's what I believe anyway.

So in your role at Emily Carr University, how do you ensure that course evaluations and program reviews address the needs of neurodiverse learners?

That's a wow, that question really makes me think. Because there's a balance. Research wise speaking, every time we change a question, that changes not only the question set, but that also changes the whole dataset. So, and this one didn't come from me. This one came from the director of the teaching and learning center.

They wanted to change the question to make it more inclusive. And I'm totally on board with that. Lots of people are on board with that. And then when it came to actually doing it, well, it takes more time than we thought. It's going to change the question.

We're going to have to look at the data differently. And my job at the time, and my job there is to go, well, these are the different things we have to look at based on that. And so together, me and the director are like, we're being more informed together and go like, you know what? We would like this change to be made, but we need to spend more time on this to make it work. So in that sense, it's like the changes we want to make them.

And this is where I understand from the backend, where if you hear it from the front end, it's like, it's not happening yet. Oh, we're still working things out. And it's like, you're not delivering the promise that you made, or you're not meeting our expectations. And this is where I'm torn because the researcher in me goes, yeah, we want to make this change work. So for me, I would like to go, yeah, there are ways to make that more efficient, to automate that process.

So then the changes we make can actually happen sooner and more effectively. So that's the sort of thing I want to build in making that more inclusive, because the nice thing is there are people that, that, are sold or bought in already that want to make this change. We have a student rights and responsibilities person, a coordinator, we have accessibility manager, we have a student support and we have indigenization and so forth. We want that in there and so do I. So my job then is to go, how do we make that system work so then we can come together and do that?

And one area of that would be institutional research and the data governance, or at least the data management. So that would be my world right now in terms of how I can make that more inclusive. Because at the end of the day, if we want to do evidence based research, we need to work well with that evidence. Because again, that's the system we're in. Yes.

Working with the system, not cheating it, not necessarily beating it, but working with it.

Yeah. So, so far we have been, you know, since the start of this conversation, one thing I've noticed is we, it's the neuro divergent populations that are advocating for themselves.

Yes.

Right. Kind of a lonely battle at times. What do you think the institutions can do to better advocate for neurodiverse individuals, especially in their academic and professional settings?

Well, I'd say, and this is half joke, I say this as half joking. If you put a neurodivergent person in charge, the human condition kicks in, right? For better or worse, changes will come with that sort of vested interest in mind. Let me give some positive examples. This is from BCIT, and this is again So during of all times during COVID, BCIT built their office of international students and also made a building for the office of international students.

And so what made that work was top down. So they had the board on board, they have the governor and so forth on board. So it's not like a grassroot effort, which ties in with the whole, like lonely uphill battle, pushing the boulder up the hill type of thing. Right. So in that sense, how would that challenge work in terms of the application?

I think in digitalization or sort of like the gender bred person or that type of thing, where you go like allies or champions or advocates. Those are all well and good, I think, but I think they come from a perspective of the dominant group. Like this is the dominant group that goes, I want to be an ally for the minority group. If the neurodivergent group is labeled as minority and it's about hill battle for the minority group, then the only help they're gonna get that is from the non minority group would have them to come from the dominant group. And then what makes the dominant group want to help?

Okay.

One way to, and again, this is from my perspective. I go, well, it's like Inception, the movie, where it had to make them think it's their idea, and part of it is their idea. Okay. They want to help, but maybe like the how, maybe sometimes even the why. It's not like us telling them that they need to help us, but it's like, if the timing is good, if the buy in is there, then it's like building that relationship and then getting that buy in is there, which is why I think this is why it works in some institutions, but not others, because the person in charge isn't necessarily neurodivergent or supportive of that or knows somebody.

So I think in that sense, it's a bit of a lottery going on, that part is left to chance.

Yeah, maybe leave some sticky notes at their station. Oops, where did that come from?

Well, I think this is where, as of history, and this is where I go like, hey, history is boring. There's in fact like pictures on the web of a history lecture and the people were falling asleep in medieval times of that lecture. But it's important that history is about people. And this is like learning from history, okay, well, the history of, let's say, Black People's History Month or Asian History Month. In Vancouver, there's a museum for Chinese culture now in downtown, in Chinatown.

But how did those happen? I think there's two pronged approach is similar to the research I did with the indigenous hope of cultural continuity. And what we found there was, is that if there is things that help the group, the indigenous band, the first nation band, have their own self agency. So their own government, their own school, their own hospital, their own fire department, their own police department, those are the things that help them stand on their feet, so to speak. And then this benefits the children that have a route to go back to.

So in that sense, it would be a challenge for the neuro diverse community to build those things. So I think in the sense, I can see what this podcast is doing. Yes, there are people including myself, like, oh, I wanna be hurt, selfishly or whatever. I wanna speak up. Great.

But I would imagine, and please correct me if I'm wrong, if this is a way of gathering the voices together, as I can read the embracing every mind, sharing every voice, and that sharing of the voices then becomes, you know, building them. Then, and then, okay, maybe there, maybe there could be more like a Canadian autism network or autism speaks where you go, okay, you build a structure out of it. You build a business model out of it. And then, and then this can build a community out of it. Maybe then those are ways of like raising awareness, building support, gathering resources, training professionals and so forth, where you can build that.

Cause there's a teacher shortage right now, I think, among other things. And so maybe, maybe down the road that can make some positive changes that go systemic. Who knows?

Yes. So Angus, to wrap things up, we have a segment called the Neurodiversity Myth Busting Segment. We also hope to encourage our listeners to submit their responses to the six myths that found on our website. Yeah. And we may feature them on our next podcast episode.

So we will ask our guest speaker to give us his thoughts on one of the myths as

well. Okay.

So, yeah, first myth is neurodiverse individuals are less intelligent. Second, neurodiverse individuals cannot succeed in the workplace. Third, neurodiverse individuals lack social skills. Fourth, neurodiversity is a disorder that needs to be cured. Fifth, neurodiverse individuals are all the same.

And sixth, neurodiverse individuals are always introverted and prefer to be alone.

How many of those, miss? Is it for next time or this time? Just I just wanna be sure.

If you wanted to pick one.

Oh, one.

Which one would you want to bust today?

Bust. Okay. Can go in order if you want. I think the first one was people with neurodiversity are less intelligent or not as intelligent. Is that the first one?

Yep. That's the one.

Just pick one of them and then bust one Okay. Of

I'd say the first one is probably the easiest to bust. I mean, add this type in, you can Google search somebody famous, and then you attach some neuro diverse condition next to it. And you're probably gonna find something Einstein, Elon Musk anyway, but it's often you make associations and coming from my own perspective is like, well, it can be done as a coping mechanism. It can be done as a way to go, oh, wait, just trying to see who's out there. And it's one thing to go looking your own circle and some neuro diverse conditions are invisible and others are less, more visible.

Then, so in that sense, in terms of intelligence, I think intelligence in this way is also a mask of the neuro diversity. Giftedness and sort of like certain conditions or disorders, that's another myth to bust, because I'm using the word condition as we probably would. They often can not only compliment each other, but they also sometimes sort of overshadow each other, so to speak. So I think in terms of that myth I would say if it's a person to person context and and let's say a person starts sharing that they have some sort of neurodiversity I think that the assumption of intelligence has already been made regardless of the condition. You meet with that person and go okay yeah that person makes a judgment call or an impression is that person intelligent or not.

So I think then if that assumption has already been made, then any condition that is disclosed on them would just sort of add fuel to the fire. Oh, if that person thinks the other person's intelligent and then they hear about this, oh, okay, that person is special now. They're intelligent because of that condition or whatever or they have that condition because they're intelligent. They might make that kind of confusion. If it was a negative connotation, that person's less intelligent, it's like the attribution error.

Then that condition that, okay they're not intelligent because of that condition. So I would say in that sense, the myth here isn't necessarily about the connection between the person's intelligence and that condition. It's really more about the assumptions, the stereotypes that I'll start with myself, that I make with that condition or with intelligence as a whole. Because even the theory of intelligence, again, associate my field, like that theory is changing. They used to do like multiple theories of intelligence, their outputs fall out of favor, my IQ test is still a thing because it's standardized in a way, but at the same time now you have transferable skills or skill based intelligence and so forth.

Then I believe a way to bust that myth is to learn about both of us. Learn what intelligence is and how that has changed. Learn about neurodiversity and how that has changed. And I think that would make a more informed connection between the two and then it would help working with people and go well okay what's your intelligence if you're asking that question what's your neurodiversity if you're asking that question and then looking at them first separately and then maybe ways together as long as you

get to know that person. So thank you, Angus, sharing your story and expertise with us today. Thanks for having me. That's all for today's episode of the Neurodiversity Voices podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in and being part of this important conversation.

We hope you found today's discussion insightful and inspiring. Remember, every voice matters and together we can create a more inclusive and understanding world for neurodivergent individuals.

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