The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast

Hello and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast. I'm your host, Paul Cruz, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey of exploration, advocacy and celebration of neurodiversity.

And I'm Gino Akbari, your co host. Together, we'll have meaningful conversations, share inspiring stories and challenge misconceptions about neurodiversity.

This podcast is for everyone. Whether you're neurodivergent yourself, an educator, a parent, or just someone curious to learn more, our goal is to amplify voices, foster understanding, and spark change in the way we view and support neurodiversity.

I'm so excited to have you with us as we celebrate the beauty of diverse minds and work toward a more inclusive future.

So sit back, relax, and let's get started. Welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices Podcast.

Welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices Podcast, where we amplify stories and insights from across the neurodiverse and disability community. Today, we are joined by Michelle Steiner, a writer, photographer, and disability advocate living with an invisible disability. Despite being told she couldn't go to college, publish her work, or pursue a career she wanted, Michelle has done all of that and more. She earned her degree in community programming from Slippery Rock University, works as a paraeducator supporting students with disabilities, and has been widely published in outlets such as The Mighty and Ward Gathering. We're excited to learn more about her journey and the lessons she has to share.

Welcome, Michelle.

Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to having this conversation.

We are excited to have you. So let's get right into it. Now you've described living with an invisible disability. Can you share what that has meant for you in your everyday life and what is it?

Right. An invisible disability is one that a disability that people cannot see. I think a lot of times when I tell people that I have a learning disability, they'll often say to me, You don't look like you're disabled. And we're so used to as a society, yet seeing the wheelchair or maybe a visible mark that might indicate something such as Down syndrome. We're so used to the canes that we sometimes think that if somebody is saying that they have a disability they can't see, it's just it isn't true.

Just because people can't see my disability does not mean that it's not there and it does not mean that it doesn't impact my life.

That is a powerful way of describing it. It really helps set the stage for understanding your journey.

Growing up, people often told you what you couldn't do. How did you find the determination to prove them wrong?

I can remember that was really frustrating for me because I knew what I wanted and people were telling me that I couldn't, but some of the advice that I was getting wasn't necessarily the best. And I can just remember I followed what I did it afraid. I went to college when people were telling me you can't go to college because of your math difficulties. Why don't you go to trade school? And nothing there interested me.

So I didn't think that that was the best journey. So I went ahead and I did that afraid. I also had a psychiatrist who told me I want to go past community college. And in all those struggles, I was a very negative person at that time. I really focused on more of what I couldn't do.

And I focused more about the situation, the things that were really giving me difficulties where I didn't focus a lot on the things that I could do. And I think one of the things that definitely helped was having support from family and friends. My parents never gave up on me. I had friends that could not fix my disability, but could be my friend. And sometimes that was really important.

And when I started to have that shift, was finding things that worked for me and finding things that I was good at and that I really enjoyed doing and finding a way to do that. And that's when I started to have that confidence and I realized I could have that success. A long time ago, I felt, well, the only way I can have success is if I have my disability and it goes away. And I've been able to achieve a lot of things, but I still have a disability. So I think it's just that finding a way to do things and engaging in the things that I love to do.

It sounds like resilience has been a huge theme for you. What do you wish more people understood about invisible disabilities?

Understood about invisible disabilities is that they are real because so many times people want to dismiss that, that it must not be a real thing. I get this a lot of times with people who know me and they'll tell me, you can't be disabled. You must've been able to overcome it because you have a bachelor's degree or you've had an article published. I have to say, yes, I've had a lot of that success, but I still have a disability and oftentimes you know just people on the street. They'll think well what is wrong with you?

I know somebody that has this kind of disability and they're either able to do what I can't do or they might say, well, you really don't have it that hard. I remember there was somebody that was I was venting that it was really difficult because in a class that I was struggling with and a woman said, well, you should really consider yourself lucky. I saw at the store someone with no arms or no legs and you could have life a lot worse. And while I don't know the circumstances of that person, I do understand that for me, yes, there are things that could happen that definitely could make my life more difficult, but it's still, still a struggle for me as well. And everybody has things that they struggle with and everyone has things that they're good at as well.

And I think that comparison sometimes can do a lot more harm than good.

That's such an important reminder. Not all challenges are visible. What led you to study community programming at Slippery Rock University?

Well, one of the things when I was going back to school, I knew that I wanted to get my bachelor's degree, but I knew that if I was going to go into a program, I needed to find something that I was passionate about, but had the least amount of math and science possible, but it was still helping other people. And that is what I found. What I found in that program in that department was it was a lot of compassionate, caring people that had experience working with people as educators in the classroom with students that have disabilities. So they understood a lot of me and really were able to communicate that they loved having me there. That was a really powerful thing too.

And I wanted to just get into a field where I could still help somebody with doing that. There's a lot of different ways to people with my degree can help others. Sometimes people find work in a group home as maybe a house parent. Other people find it as I did. I was a therapeutic support staff worker for a while.

That's where I did my internship with working with people with autism. But I ended up back working with students with having disabilities in the classroom as a paraeducator. But the beauty in all of that is I knew no matter what I got into, that I could make a difference and I could use that information to carry that out and to help other individuals that have disabilities.

Seems like college became more than just education. It was a way of shaping your path forward. How did your college experience influence the way you approach disability advocacy today?

When I first started out at community college, that was really a hard time for me. I didn't have a lot of those supports. I mean, had accommodations, but there was just that stigma that surrounded them. And I think that that really shaped me to move forward, but I also it was really difficult. I always I didn't want to.

And when I went to going to university, I understood that what I needed to do and there was always going to be that stigma. But I also realized that listening to that wasn't going to help me. So I became more of an advocate for myself. I looked and I used the programs on campus. I had a note taker.

I had extended test time. I had tutoring when I needed it. And most importantly, I really got that chance to advocate for myself with professors. I wasn't hiding with having a disability with shame anymore. I was going up to new professors and saying, my name is Michelle.

I have a learning disability. These are the services that I'm going to be needing for the semester. And what I found was most people got it. Most professors wanted to help and did everything that they could and others they didn't quite get the memo, but that was okay. I knew how to handle that and I just started to understand how important it was because people can't see my disability that I speak up for myself because sometimes people look at me and they just presume that I should be able to do it or I should know that.

And I have to just be somebody that is very clear on what I can and also what I can't do.

That's a great connection between personal experience and professional impact. In your role as a paraeducator, what do you find most rewarding about working with students with disabilities?

Rewarding is that ability to be able to go in and give back and to come full circle. For a lot of my students that I work with, I work with seventh graders and it's like hearing a recording of myself at that age. I hate my disability. I wish I didn't have an individualized education plan and I get to be that voice that tells them it's okay to have a disability. It's not a bad thing to have that plan in place and here's why.

And I also get to show them how to advocate for themselves. Cause for so many of my students, they're going to end up leaving me someday, but their disabilities are going to stay. So I think it's really important that we show them how to advocate and speak up for themselves. But I honestly think that having a disability isn't a bad thing with that. I think it actually turns into a string.

I can help them with anything as long as it does not involve math. And I'm pretty open about that, but I think it's helped me to become more empathetic because a lot of my coworkers, they have that love and they have that compassion, but they don't, a lot of them don't understand what it's like to be that person with a disability sitting there at that class and how hard that is. And I think that that makes me a better paraeducator for me because I have that. I not only do I have the compassion, but I have the empathy. And I don't think if I didn't experience this with having a disability, that I would have that understanding.

And it must be incredibly meaningful to see moments in your students of progress and connection and that brings it all back to what you do. You've also been publishing outlets like the Mighty, DeScalculia blog and the Word Gathering. What inspires your writing?

A lot of what inspires my writing is two things, nature is a big part. I'm not able to drive because of my disability. So I get that chance when I don't have a ride that I can stop literally stop and smell the roses. And there's so many details that I get to pick out that if I was driving, I would miss. People often say, bring out the details in a flower that other people miss.

I did today when I was on a walk with my husband, I got to see a butterfly on a flower. And if I was in the car, I would miss so many of those things. So I think a lot of that comes about with my blog and I can compare a lot of my experiences with nature. I can talk about the process of a flower that's blooming with how I learned to accept my disability. And I just, I get that opportunity to do that.

I also talk a lot about just my experiences with having a disability and I was once somebody that was really ashamed of having one. Reading and writing were all were always a big part. My dad saw a story that I wrote about a dinosaur in second or third grade and thought, oh, this is really good. And that gave me all that encouragement to write, especially when I was being bullied. And I can remember as an adult joining or as a teenager joining an adult writing group and having some of the members tell me you should really write about having a learning disability.

And I thought, oh no, that's too personal. I wrote some really bad poetry and some other things I would not want to share here today. But I finally got that courage as an adult was I was diagnosed with limited hand dexterity in both of my hands and I moved into our house and I was so frustrated because my hands could not open up the door with that limited dexterity. And there was a call on the mighty. What's a seemingly easy task for other people, but it's really hard with your disability.

And I said, I'm going to write about this. And when I did that. It got published and I had such a good following and people were telling me, well, that's my story or I struggle with that too. And I thought I was the only one so that encouraged me to write more articles. And I also was encouraged to start my own blog as well to feature my writing and my photography.

It's amazing how storytelling open doors for connection. Do you have a piece of writing that you're especially proud of or that connected deeply with readers?

I think one of the articles on The Mighty that really connected with a lot of people was, I'm not lucky that I can't drive. Because I remember having a conversation with somebody that told me, well, you're lucky that you don't have to drive. And as I explained to that person, there is some benefits to that, but there's also a lot of frustration sometimes with not always having a ride. I'm very blessed that I can have my husband take me and a nice coworker does at the end of the day to work. It opened a door up where more people struggle with this than I ever thought.

And that it's not just a problem necessarily for people with disabilities, but we have a public transportation system in our country that needs reformed and there's not a lot that's invested with that. There's not a lot of places it goes to. It's very limited if you would even look into other countries with that. So this kind of brought up the open the door up to people who don't drive or people who aren't in a situation where they can or can afford that.

That really shows the power of sharing lived experiences because I think people can learn from it and know that there's someone else out there besides them, right? Amongst many other things, you're also a photographer. Your photography has been featured in Word Gathering and in The Independent. How does photography help you express your perspective?

I think photography helps me to be able to see the beauty and so many things that maybe people wouldn't even think. Maybe we're all other people who drive or other people that are just in a hurry. They don't get to notice a lot of details. They don't get to see the butterflies. They don't get to see a lot of the flowers because they're just so focused in and everybody is not that connected towards what really is going on or that they don't have that chance to just like stop and smell the roses and to be present.

So sometimes I love to bring that joy into somebody's life and I like to bring that. Perspective in there and maybe it's some happy, something happy that people can look at when they see my website or I'm or online on social media rather than putting up stuff that's really going to divide people or make people upset. This is something that can really put a smile on somebody's face and maybe just show that there really is good out there.

I love how creativity gives you another lens literally to tell stories. Do you see a connection between your photography and writing in how you tell stories?

I think I do. A lot of times photography might just be another way of talking about my day. I can show people, Oh, this is what I took when I was on my walk. And this kind of shows that experience. Or if my husband and I are traveling, I get to maybe show some of the really pretty things that we got to see on that tree or interesting things.

And that kind of is a way of talking about that. And then I can also show with the writing too. They give that expression. They both are forms of expression, but it's been said that a picture says a thousand words and sometimes with writing, I might say that, or I might just be able, I might go under that as well, but I think sometimes a picture can really speak deeply into maybe somebody's heart or emotions.

So your creativity really flows across different mediums. That's amazing. What are some of common misconceptions about people with invisible disabilities that you like to challenge? I mean, it seems like you've broken most of them by spanning across so many mediums, right?

Right. One of the things I know in particular with learning disabilities is that a person with a learning disability, one of the best common misconceptions is a person with one cannot learn. And that is not true. I am able to learn. I just need a different way to do it.

Sometimes maybe some repetition or just sometimes just a different way. Just looking at it from a different angle. Sometimes there's also people that might think with learning disabilities that I must be able to do anything and everything. And that's not always true either. I do have limitations with having one.

Some people will say, you must have superpowers or they don't even like the term disability. And I'm like, well, there are things that I am exceptionally good at, but I don't have superpowers. I am the same as another person. I just have some, maybe more difficulties with certain tasks as well. I think sometimes maybe misconceptions about this hasn't been something I've experienced, but like with chronic pain or chronic fatigue that people have good days and then they have bad days.

So somebody might say, well, what do you mean you can't do this today? You were able to do this yesterday or last week and that person might have been able to do it then, but today is the day where they're not able to and people just have those days and we may not be able to see a lot of that pain or that struggle, but it's there and today is not that day that somebody can. Maybe it will be tomorrow.

That's such a vital point. Challenging those assumptions really matters. How can schools and communities better support students with disabilities?

I guess ways that they can do that is to definitely focus on strengths. What does that person, what is that person good at? What do they like to do? And then really bring that into the focus of that. I think it is important though, that we do look at those areas that maybe a student is struggling with, but maybe try to look at some strengths and things that they like to bring that into that as well.

I also think it's a customized approach really does need to happen in schools and also in communities. We offer this cookie cutter approach for every student that comes in and that, that just simply doesn't work for everything. Doesn't just work for that student. We have to make sure that it, we're really trying to work with each student as an individual rather than a whole and to look for just ways that we were able to do that. And I also think it's educating families as well.

A lot of times maybe families don't know a lot about maybe their child's disability or even as an adult, maybe what their child, what their disability is. And I think sometimes it's educating the family. I know the school worked with my mom and dad on me educating them what a learning disability was and making sure that I was trying my best. And my parents also worked together with the school too. So I think it's that connection that you have to have with communities and schools.

Everybody needs to work together to benefit that person that has a disability.

That is such practical advice, things people can actually put into practice, bringing community together and using their strengths, what they're good at, rather than focusing on what they're struggling with. What advice would you give to someone who feels underestimated because of their disability?

One of the first things I would tell that person is to know what you want to do and to be able to find a way to do it. I know I had a lot of people telling me there was things I couldn't do and some of those things they were correct on. I mean, other than, you know, I'm not great with math and I'm certainly not able to drive a vehicle safely, but there were certain things they weren't right on. I was told that I would not be able to write news articles or I wouldn't be able to do a lot with photography. Would be beyond my capability and they weren't correct on that.

So I think sometimes it's knowing what you want and finding a way to do that and really taking into consideration though the disability. Another example is when I went to college, I knew I wanted to work with students in some capacity, but being a teacher that was certified was not an option for me. I knew that I couldn't pass the certification tests. I knew that sometimes getting that material would be beyond what I could do, but I was able to find a way to make college work for me and to be able to graduate and do well. And I think it's going on with that, finding out what you want to do, finding a way to do it.

And also focusing on your strengths. When I'm taking pictures of flowers where I'm reading a book or writing about something, I don't feel less than, I feel happy. I feel empowered. And I love that, that part about myself. But whenever I'm trying to do a math problem or tried to open up a door and it's not working, that's when I feel a lot more frustrated and that's when I have a lot more struggle.

But when I, when I keep my eyes towards what I can do and what I like to do, that's just a happier experience for me.

That's such an empowering message. What projects are you currently working on that excite you?

Right now I am going to be speaking at a conference for the blind in the fall about resources for people with disabilities. I also have some blog posts that I'm working on getting together, as well, which is one of the things I love to do. I also have a couple of places that I'm submitting things out to, and I have a third anthology that I'll have a story published in, in the fall. It should come out around November.

That sounds like something our listeners will definitely want to check out. Where can listeners learn more about your work and connect with you if they wanted to?

Sure. I am at uw. Michellesmission dot com and I'm also on Facebook and Instagram.

Michelle, you've talked so much about what you've accomplished and it's such an inspiring story to hear because it gives people hope and motivation and inspiration to go do the same. What about your home life? You are married to your husband, of course, and I wanted to know, you know, for people listening that are going, Oh, can I be in a relationship too? What advice do you have to give and can you share a little bit about that if you don't mind?

Sure, I'd be happy to. I know that I always wanted to be married. I always wanted to find somebody and fall in love just like anybody else. I grew up in a family where marriage was really considered important. Swear that my mom and my grandma had my wedding planned out from the day I was born.

I knew that was important, but I had people that said you may not find somebody with having a disability and they were right. I can remember I was breaking up with my ex and he told me I think you could drive if you wanted to and I'm tired of taking you places and other people have said that you know I can't be with you because you have a disability. And when I found I was so tired of all that that I just prayed and I just said God don't send me anybody until it's the right person and God was really faithful in doing that. And I ended up meeting somebody when I least expected it. We met in an art center.

And it was funny. Somebody before that said, oh, are you seeing somebody? I said no. And they said, oh, I bet you'll meet him at a place like this. And sure enough, that's where I met him.

And I had another friend that told me, you know, I had a dream about you. You, you were getting married, you had a vintage dress on and you were standing in front

of the

courthouse and I don't know who the guy is. So of course I'm curious who the guy was and I could understand the dress because that's definitely my style. And I also, but I wondered, you know, why would I have the courthouse? Well, we had our wedding reception. The photographer took us on a little walk and right outside of that park was the courthouse and everything came together.

But what advice I would give to people though is number one. If somebody does not want to be with you because you have a disability, that's not the right person for you and there's nothing you can do to fix that. There's nothing you can do to make that person change or for you to change yourself. So I would probably say that look for people in life that are accepting of that and be upfront and be honest with it because that's something you're going to want to know how somebody is going to react to that.

Thank you for sharing that. That is inspiring. With autism, they use something called masking in public for ADHD. We do deep breathing to calm the nerves down. What do you do when you get in moments where you're at home where things come barging in?

What is your method of coping? Is there something specific you do?

One of the things that I find is really important is exercise. Sometimes if I'm really upset about something and I just need to be able to calm down, I might take a walk and get out of the situation. Sometimes that helps me to be able to do that. I might take a couple of deep breaths or sometimes I might pull my iPad out and I might have a book on there that I'll read or, or a word puzzle that I do. And writing is also a big part of that too.

A lot of times if I'm really upset about something and I just have to get it out, I can write about that. And sometimes I can do fiction, which is different from what I, what I usually write and put out there. But sometimes I've had to put like maybe characters that I had in my life and I didn't want to put down their names or the situation. And I put them as like, as a character of my story and I said everything that I wanted to say to them and that was just so healing and it just released so many emotions that I could forgive that person. So I think that that helps as well.

That's amazing. Support systems. What advice would you give to people around people like yourself, starting with parents? Sometimes parents look at their kids and they want the best for them, and there's a bit of denial. I have cousins who have autism, and it's like, Oh no, nothing's wrong.

Everything's okay. What advice would you give them to catch these things early and find ways to enhance your kid's life or siblings or family members? What would you say to people around?

First things I would say is be when the children are very young is to be in contact with your child's pediatrician. And also they have birth to three services where you can go and get your child evaluated. You have any concerns or if you're just wondering, is everything going the way it's supposed to be? And taking that advice and doing those recommendations. There's also early intervention services, preschools now that can help students that have disabilities.

There's a lot more than when I was in school. I was really fortunate to that I was diagnosed early, but I, there's so many things for young parents to do and working with them too, working with the resources that are available when they are young. And if you do find out that a child has a disability, explain it to them at a young age in simple age appropriate terms. I know my mom and dad explained to me that I had a learning disability from the very beginning and that my brain works differently and that I learned in a different way. And hearing that advice, it was so much more powerful than what I was getting from my peers.

My peers were telling me that I wasn't very smart. So I know a lot of parents might be hesitant. They might think, Oh, I know I don't want to diagnose. I don't want to have them labeled, but sometimes that labeling at a young age and explaining that really does help the person and not giving up on them. I think that's the big thing too.

You don't want to give up on that person. My mom and dad never gave up on me, but they were supportive. I had to try my best, but I didn't have to be perfect and they also pushed me. They helped me develop some resilience. They made me go to school even when I was having a difficulty with my peers or when we had a lot of long, cheerful homework sessions and we studied for a test and I knew I wasn't going to do well on it.

They still made me go to school and have those experiences as well, but they were also there for me when I needed them as too. So I think it's not giving up on your kids. And it's also just really pushing them to be the best that they can be. Maybe not the best that somebody else's or maybe even a sibling, but pushing them to be their personal best. And I also think it's focusing on things they are good at.

My dad found a story that I wrote about whenever I was young. He knew I was a good reader. He would read me stories every night and that's what we gravitated toward spending time with. And I think that's important too, because kids need to have that. Ability to have that connection and to think I am good at something there are.

I do have talent. I have value as well.

My last question in an ideal world, how would you like the world to see you as a person with disability?

I think in an ideal world I would love to see a person that for how they see me is a person that is capable, a person that is but also has my needs as well and they're okay with that. They can see me as that person that maybe isn't perfect, maybe has those things that they can do and things that I can't do. And we just work together to try to create this world that's not only adaptable to me, but it's adaptable for everybody. And it supports all different kinds of minds, thinking, and ideas.

Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your powerful story of resilience, creativity, and activism. Your journey is an inspiration for anyone who has been told what they can do. For our listeners, again, you can learn more about Michelle's work at Michelle's Mission with an s, michelle's.com, and we'll include her links in the show notes.

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Until next time. Take care, stay curious and keep celebrating the beauty of diverse minds.

Thanks for listening to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast.